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Post by Zany on Sept 10, 2024 16:57:46 GMT
Bro I was fooled by Boris and greatly regret it. Also Bro the fear was getting Corbyn instead, even worse. I don't think Corbyn would have been even worse that Boris. I think his government would have sought to help a lot more of the ordinary people. And the 2017 manifesto was hardly an extreme document. But yes Corbyn had many flaws and would likely have been a poor leader in many ways, and God only knows how he would have reacted to Covid. I struggle to believe however that it would have been any worse that what we ended up with, all the more so because I am convinced that in spite of his many faults Corbyn genuinely cared about the weak and downtrodden. And it is this more than anything else that resonated with me as far as he is concerned. I genuinely believed - and still do - that his heart was in the right place. Though I also acknowledge that that alone is just not enough. As for his supposed antisemitism, I dont actually believe he is an antisemite at all. After all he was always on good terms with the Jews in his own constituency and always respected holocaust memorial events and days. What he definitell very much is though is a staunch anti-Zionist, at least in the way the extreme right in Israel uses it to justify oppression of people already there who just happen to be in the way. Jewishness is a racial ethnicity and to be anti it is to be a racist antisemite. But Zionism is an ideology. Opposing an ideology is not inherently racist. To equate anti-Zionism with antisemitism is as false a conflation as identifying anti-monarchism with hatred of the British. It is this deliberate conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism which forms the entire basis of labelling the left as antisemites, as well as being the main means of shutting down legitimate criticism of the conduct of Israel and some of it's people and armed forces. I am absolutely certain the Corbyn cared for the down trodden. My concern was that he had no common sense in this regard, that he would break the country trying to pay public workers what they are worth and having a public body to care for every need, That no one would be asked to look out for themselves and everyone be assumed to be a salt of the earth working soul down trodden by the rich. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2024 17:27:57 GMT
I don't think Corbyn would have been even worse that Boris. I think his government would have sought to help a lot more of the ordinary people. And the 2017 manifesto was hardly an extreme document. But yes Corbyn had many flaws and would likely have been a poor leader in many ways, and God only knows how he would have reacted to Covid. I struggle to believe however that it would have been any worse that what we ended up with, all the more so because I am convinced that in spite of his many faults Corbyn genuinely cared about the weak and downtrodden. And it is this more than anything else that resonated with me as far as he is concerned. I genuinely believed - and still do - that his heart was in the right place. Though I also acknowledge that that alone is just not enough. As for his supposed antisemitism, I dont actually believe he is an antisemite at all. After all he was always on good terms with the Jews in his own constituency and always respected holocaust memorial events and days. What he definitell very much is though is a staunch anti-Zionist, at least in the way the extreme right in Israel uses it to justify oppression of people already there who just happen to be in the way. Jewishness is a racial ethnicity and to be anti it is to be a racist antisemite. But Zionism is an ideology. Opposing an ideology is not inherently racist. To equate anti-Zionism with antisemitism is as false a conflation as identifying anti-monarchism with hatred of the British. It is this deliberate conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism which forms the entire basis of labelling the left as antisemites, as well as being the main means of shutting down legitimate criticism of the conduct of Israel and some of it's people and armed forces. I am absolutely certain the Corbyn cared for the down trodden. My concern was that he had no common sense in this regard, that he would break the country trying to pay public workers what they are worth and having a public body to care for every need, That no one would be asked to look out for themselves and everyone be assumed to be a salt of the earth working soul down trodden by the rich. That is a caricature and exaggeration, but yes I guess Corbyn himself thought sometimes in terms of caricatures informed by his own ideological assumptions. But I still dont think he would have been quite the disaster you assume. After all there were others around him prepared to be far more pragmatic. I do though recognise that he would have spent much more than the Tories did had he won in 2017, not knowing that Covid was coming down the tracks. Though you yourself have often argued against right wingers in favour of government spending. You have for example in the past pretty much advocated the government spending whatever is necessary to fix the housing and NHS crisis in this country, showing yourself in favour of Keynesian economics, And much of the 2017 manifesto was costed at the time, though how well was open to question. But the amount being borrowed would have been far less than what we actually borrowed for Covid.....though of course that problem would have landed on his desk too less than three years in. This would have been the point at which the necessary spending would have risked becoming untenable. However, he is unlikely to have used it as an opportunity to line the pockets of his business mates. If only because he didn't have any business mates, lol |
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Post by Zany on Sept 10, 2024 17:42:00 GMT
I am absolutely certain the Corbyn cared for the down trodden. My concern was that he had no common sense in this regard, that he would break the country trying to pay public workers what they are worth and having a public body to care for every need, That no one would be asked to look out for themselves and everyone be assumed to be a salt of the earth working soul down trodden by the rich. That is a caricature and exaggeration, but yes I guess Corbyn himself thought sometimes in terms of caricatures informed by his own ideological assumptions. But I still dont think he would have been quite the disaster you assume. After all there were others around him prepared to be far more pragmatic. I do though recognise that he would have spent much more than the Tories did had he won in 2017, not knowing that Covid was coming down the tracks. Though you yourself have often argued against right wingers in favour of government spending. You have for example in the past pretty much advocated the government spending whatever is necessary to fix the housing and NHS crisis in this country, showing yourself in favour of Keynesian economics, And much of the 2017 manifesto was costed at the time, though how well was open to question. But the amount being borrowed would have been far less than what we actually borrowed for Covid.....though of course that problem would have landed on his desk too less than three years in. This would have been the point at which the necessary spending would have risked becoming untenable. However, he is unlikely to have used it as an opportunity to line the pockets of his business mates. If only because he didn't have any business mates, lol I don't believe Corbyn would have stuck to any manifesto promises, however my main problem at the time was that much of what was being proposed lacked any clarity, so I had no choice but to assume the worst. The sort of thing we last saw in the 70's. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2024 20:57:25 GMT
That is a caricature and exaggeration, but yes I guess Corbyn himself thought sometimes in terms of caricatures informed by his own ideological assumptions. But I still dont think he would have been quite the disaster you assume. After all there were others around him prepared to be far more pragmatic. I do though recognise that he would have spent much more than the Tories did had he won in 2017, not knowing that Covid was coming down the tracks. Though you yourself have often argued against right wingers in favour of government spending. You have for example in the past pretty much advocated the government spending whatever is necessary to fix the housing and NHS crisis in this country, showing yourself in favour of Keynesian economics, And much of the 2017 manifesto was costed at the time, though how well was open to question. But the amount being borrowed would have been far less than what we actually borrowed for Covid.....though of course that problem would have landed on his desk too less than three years in. This would have been the point at which the necessary spending would have risked becoming untenable. However, he is unlikely to have used it as an opportunity to line the pockets of his business mates. If only because he didn't have any business mates, lol I don't believe Corbyn would have stuck to any manifesto promises, however my main problem at the time was that much of what was being proposed lacked any clarity, so I had no choice but to assume the worst. The sort of thing we last saw in the 70's. I think he would have stuck to most of his manifesto promises, at least until Covid hit. He tended to be more honest than most politicians. Which is why he had so much baggage to be used against him, too ready to say what he really thought. But you disagree and think he wouldnt have kept any of them. Neither of us can prove the other is wrong. But if you were scared of his modest promises, why if you don't think he would have kept them? That doesnt make sense unless you thought he was going to keep the ones that scared you. And I do find it simultaneously ironic, amusing, and strange that you couldnt trust anything Corbyn said yet managed to trust Boris Johnson. Excuse me for a moment whilst I go and have a quiet chuckle in the corner. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Sept 10, 2024 21:39:02 GMT
I don't believe Corbyn would have stuck to any manifesto promises, however my main problem at the time was that much of what was being proposed lacked any clarity, so I had no choice but to assume the worst. The sort of thing we last saw in the 70's. I think he would have stuck to most of his manifesto promises, at least until Covid hit. He tended to be more honest than most politicians. . . Jeez Jeremy 'my friends Hamas' Corbyn was one of the most dishonest in living memory. Professed to be committed to Labour to get himself elected over and over and then voted against Labour over 400 times in the house. Affected to be a Remainer and then did everything in his power to sabotage the Remain campaign incl that infamous seizing of the last Remain TV interview before the vote to sit there and say how immigration was good which is why we should stay in the EU. He knew what he was doing. And by 2019 the electorate had sussed him out resulting in a huge 'anyone but Corbyn' vote. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2024 1:23:49 GMT
I think he would have stuck to most of his manifesto promises, at least until Covid hit. He tended to be more honest than most politicians. . . Jeez Jeremy 'my friends Hamas' Corbyn was one of the most dishonest in living memory. Professed to be committed to Labour to get himself elected over and over and then voted against Labour over 400 times in the house. Affected to be a Remainer and then did everything in his power to sabotage the Remain campaign incl that infamous seizing of the last Remain TV interview before the vote to sit there and say how immigration was good which is why we should stay in the EU. He knew what he was doing. And by 2019 the electorate had sussed him out resulting in a huge 'anyone but Corbyn' vote. What a crock of shit. He voted against New Labour umpteen times because he remained true Labour and wouldnt vote for Tory style policies. Same reason a left winger like me wouldnt vote for New Labour. His local party supported him and his constituents kept voting for him too, both of whom knew him far better than you did. And I don't know if you noticed but when they vindictively chucked him out of the party he stood and won anyway. So when it came to winning that seat Labour obviously needed him far more than he needed them, lol You just parrot the usual identikit shite like a typical retired tabloid reader of a kind I frequently encountered on the door step, emoting all over the place whilst regurgitating the shit they have been fed. He is a commie terrorist lover cos it was the Sun wot said it. Corbyn was too honest for his own good which constantly resulted in him being slagged off for things he said. A lot was of course twisted and distorted before being presented to your gullible ears. But this has all the hallmarks of another issue where you are intent on picking a fight with me for emotive reasons in defiance of facts. There is no reasoning with you when you do this.. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2024 1:33:24 GMT
I think he would have stuck to most of his manifesto promises, at least until Covid hit. He tended to be more honest than most politicians. . . Jeez Jeremy 'my friends Hamas' Corbyn was one of the most dishonest in living memory. Professed to be committed to Labour to get himself elected over and over and then voted against Labour over 400 times in the house. Affected to be a Remainer and then did everything in his power to sabotage the Remain campaign incl that infamous seizing of the last Remain TV interview before the vote to sit there and say how immigration was good which is why we should stay in the EU. He knew what he was doing. And by 2019 the electorate had sussed him out resulting in a huge 'anyone but Corbyn' vote. You say that in the face of having had Boris Johnson as PM, and all those around him defending his honesty and integrity. You probably even voted for him, lol Excuse me for a moment while I go off to the corner again for a damned good laugh. |
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Post by Zany on Sept 11, 2024 7:23:08 GMT
I don't believe Corbyn would have stuck to any manifesto promises, however my main problem at the time was that much of what was being proposed lacked any clarity, so I had no choice but to assume the worst. The sort of thing we last saw in the 70's. I think he would have stuck to most of his manifesto promises, at least until Covid hit. He tended to be more honest than most politicians. Which is why he had so much baggage to be used against him, too ready to say what he really thought. But you disagree and think he wouldnt have kept any of them. Neither of us can prove the other is wrong. But if you were scared of his modest promises, why if you don't think he would have kept them? That doesnt make sense unless you thought he was going to keep the ones that scared you. And I do find it simultaneously ironic, amusing, and strange that you couldnt trust anything Corbyn said yet managed to trust Boris Johnson. Excuse me for a moment whilst I go and have a quiet chuckle in the corner. I put that badly. I didn't trust Corbyn to stop with just the things in the manifesto and I needed to know more detail about how the ones in the manifesto they would effect my business (my income). His reputation was one of being far left, so that concerned me. Re Boris, we already had a Tory party so I knew what their policies were and I knew I HAD to vote for them to STOP Corbyn getting into power. Where I trusted Boris was on Brexit. He said he had an agreement on the NI border and the EU agreed.(Which the EU confirmed) Thus I thought he had found a way forward. The ONLY way that could work without a border would be an agreement of all standards (working practices etc) with the EU. Thus making better conditions for the UK population. What I didn't allow for was him outright lying to both the UK public and the EU. That was my mistake. |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Sept 11, 2024 9:51:56 GMT
Jeez Jeremy 'my friends Hamas' Corbyn was one of the most dishonest in living memory. Professed to be committed to Labour to get himself elected over and over and then voted against Labour over 400 times in the house. Affected to be a Remainer and then did everything in his power to sabotage the Remain campaign incl that infamous seizing of the last Remain TV interview before the vote to sit there and say how immigration was good which is why we should stay in the EU. He knew what he was doing. And by 2019 the electorate had sussed him out resulting in a huge 'anyone but Corbyn' vote. What a crock of shit. He voted against New Labour umpteen times because he remained true Labour and wouldnt vote for Tory style policies. Same reason a left winger like me wouldnt vote for New Labour. His local party supported him and his constituents kept voting for him too, both of whom knew him far better than you did. And I don't know if you noticed but when they vindictively chucked him out of the party he stood and won anyway. So when it came to winning that seat Labour obviously needed him far more than he needed them, lol You just parrot the usual identikit shite like a typical retired tabloid reader of a kind I frequently encountered on the door step, emoting all over the place whilst regurgitating the shit they have been fed. He is a commie terrorist lover cos it was the Sun wot said it. Corbyn was too honest for his own good which constantly resulted in him being slagged off for things he said. A lot was of course twisted and distorted before being presented to your gullible ears. But this has all the hallmarks of another issue where you are intent on picking a fight with me for emotive reasons in defiance of facts. There is no reasoning with you when you do this.. No apology for posting awkward truths. If Corbyn felt 'New Labour' wasn't for him they why did he stand 4 times under a new Labour manifesto only to vote against them? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2024 10:29:57 GMT
I think he would have stuck to most of his manifesto promises, at least until Covid hit. He tended to be more honest than most politicians. Which is why he had so much baggage to be used against him, too ready to say what he really thought. But you disagree and think he wouldnt have kept any of them. Neither of us can prove the other is wrong. But if you were scared of his modest promises, why if you don't think he would have kept them? That doesnt make sense unless you thought he was going to keep the ones that scared you. And I do find it simultaneously ironic, amusing, and strange that you couldnt trust anything Corbyn said yet managed to trust Boris Johnson. Excuse me for a moment whilst I go and have a quiet chuckle in the corner. His reputation was one of being far left, so that concerned me. Re Boris, we already had a Tory party so I knew what their policies were and I knew I HAD to vote for them to STOP Corbyn getting into power. Where I trusted Boris was on Brexit. He said he had an agreement on the NI border and the EU agreed.(Which the EU confirmed) Thus I thought he had found a way forward. The ONLY way that could work without a border would be an agreement of all standards (working practices etc) with the EU. Thus making better conditions for the UK population. What I didn't allow for was him outright lying to both the UK public and the EU. That was my mistake. That is fair enough. Your clarification makes a lot more sense and I understand your concerns. And fully acknowledge your need for further clarification on matters that might affect your livelihood. All that is reasonable. I don't think the 2017 policy agenda was far left in anyway, yet suspect it was enough for them to be getting on with and doubt that much more radical measures would have come forth to any great extent. But who can say anything with certainty? It is after all all too depressingly common for newly elected governments to do stuff they never said anything about beforehand. I can honestly say I was never taken in by Boris Jonhson's BS on Brexit and associated issues, perhaps because unlike you I was not terrified of the alternative. But I myself have been fooled in the past by no less a person than Tony Blair himself. In the run up to the 2001 election, for the first time I was seriously contemplating voting for something other than Labour, the biggest problem for me being the continuation of Thatcherite housing policies, the harmful effects of which were already obvious to me even back then. But Blair's talk of a more radical second term won me round because I took it to mean more left leaning and social democratic, particularly on housing. But it turned out that what he really meant was more right wing. I was fooled by him and turned against him and his party once this became clear. I never voted Labour in a general election campaign again until 2015 |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2024 10:48:42 GMT
What a crock of shit. He voted against New Labour umpteen times because he remained true Labour and wouldnt vote for Tory style policies. Same reason a left winger like me wouldnt vote for New Labour. His local party supported him and his constituents kept voting for him too, both of whom knew him far better than you did. And I don't know if you noticed but when they vindictively chucked him out of the party he stood and won anyway. So when it came to winning that seat Labour obviously needed him far more than he needed them, lol You just parrot the usual identikit shite like a typical retired tabloid reader of a kind I frequently encountered on the door step, emoting all over the place whilst regurgitating the shit they have been fed. He is a commie terrorist lover cos it was the Sun wot said it. Corbyn was too honest for his own good which constantly resulted in him being slagged off for things he said. A lot was of course twisted and distorted before being presented to your gullible ears. But this has all the hallmarks of another issue where you are intent on picking a fight with me for emotive reasons in defiance of facts. There is no reasoning with you when you do this.. No apology for posting awkward truths. If Corbyn felt 'New Labour' wasn't for him they why did he stand 4 times under a new Labour manifesto only to vote against them? Because he remained true to what Labour had always been before the coming of New Labour. And New Labour was never the entire Labour party. If it were Corbyn would never have become leader for a time. New Labour themselves were the hijackers. No apology for posting awkward truths. Or do you think anyone who disagrees with Blairism should be witch hunted out of the party? |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Sept 11, 2024 16:26:29 GMT
No apology for posting awkward truths. If Corbyn felt 'New Labour' wasn't for him they why did he stand 4 times under a new Labour manifesto only to vote against them? Because he remained true to what Labour had always been before the coming of New Labour. And New Labour was never the entire Labour party. If it were Corbyn would never have become leader for a time. New Labour themselves were the hijackers. No apology for posting awkward truths. Or do you think anyone who disagrees with Blairism should be witch hunted out of the party? If he so didn't believe in the New Labour manifestos of 1997, 2001, 2005, 2010 and 2015 then an honest politician would not have stood on them. But guess what Corbyn did. Stood on them and then voted against them. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2024 18:42:18 GMT
Because he remained true to what Labour had always been before the coming of New Labour. And New Labour was never the entire Labour party. If it were Corbyn would never have become leader for a time. New Labour themselves were the hijackers. No apology for posting awkward truths. Or do you think anyone who disagrees with Blairism should be witch hunted out of the party? If he so didn't believe in the New Labour manifestos of 1997, 2001, 2005, 2010 and 2015 then an honest politician would not have stood on them. But guess what Corbyn did. Stood on them and then voted against them. Rubbish. An honest politician stands on what he believes in. Like Blair did in 1983 when he stood on a platform favouring unilateral nuclear disarmament. Yeah right, lol. An honest politician will stand on those parts of a manifesto he believes in. All in his constituency knew where Corbyn stood. He never lied about what he really thought unlike so many others. He would have supported most of those manifestoes because they would have said little that was objectionable. But your definition of honesty seems to be toeing the party line whether you believe it or not. Corbyn had the integrity not to do that. And which parts of any of those manifestoes did he falsely claim to support? And FFS man, I supported the manifesto of 2015, so I have little doubt that Corbyn did. Probably thought it didnt go far enough, though. Corbyn represented a recognised strand of thinking in the Labour party and you think he should have pretended to be a Blairite because of Blair's manifestoes? And that everyone who does not agree with every word of a manifesto is a liar if they don't immediately leave the party? Just because you loved every bit of it? You do have the irritating tendency of talking such utter shite sometimes which kind of presses my buttons more than anyone else ever does around here. Corbyn was one of the most honest politicians in there for saying what he really thought, which is how he brought so much shit down on his own head. You seem to think an honest politician should leave a party just because those who disagree with him control it. Not if local party members and voters support him he shouldnt. I salute the integrity of an honest if often misguided man far more than I do the fucking liars you seem to think are so wonderful. Stop trying to goad me. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2024 18:59:00 GMT
Incidentally, had I been in the Labour party at the time, in an election campaign I would have supported those parts of any manifesto I agreed with, tried to say as little as possible about the bits I didnt for fear of damaging the party in an election campaign, then spoke out against them when it came to a vote, whilst responding honestly if pressed even in the election, which is pretty much what any Labour loyalist who opposed the ruling faction but believed in honesty would have done.
I see integrity where you see imaginary hateful shit, again fuelled by your emotive need to hate the guy rather than logic, emoting more than thinking being a trait of yours sometimes. If everyone who ever disagreed with aspects of their own parties' manifestoes immediately left their parties, not only would disagreement within parties become impossible, but as soon as the manifestoes were published the parties would go into meltdown, lol. Or is Corbyn the only liar for standing up for what he believed in? Which he never made any secret of regardless of what any manifesto said. When honesty is dishonesty and integrity dishonour, Orwellian double speak and double think is alive and well in you.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Sept 11, 2024 19:31:51 GMT
.. . Stop trying to goad me. I'm not. I know what I observed and I know the obvious conclusion and have presented it as such. This is a debate forum, you should expect to see some views and facts you don't like. But the anti personnel comments you have posted are not constructive. |
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