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Post by vinny on Mar 27, 2024 12:05:29 GMT
If you appear soft, you are vulnerable to attack.
If you appear strong, nobody will mess with you.
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Post by montegriffo on Mar 27, 2024 13:45:33 GMT
Speak softly but carry a big stick.
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Post by vinny on Mar 27, 2024 16:03:25 GMT
Exactly.
It's not a case of wanting a fight, but being prepared in order to prevent a thug attacking.
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Post by RedRum on Mar 28, 2024 4:24:39 GMT
It's a sad old world when people have to be prepared to kill other people.
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Post by delphicoracle on Mar 29, 2024 8:30:38 GMT
It only works when those in power behave reasonably. When their primary motive is territory and personal image, they wont care about the preparedness of the other side. Thinking of course of Putin
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Post by cartertonian on Mar 29, 2024 9:45:55 GMT
It's a sad old world when people have to be prepared to kill other people. Very true. But since that's the reality, the question is how to survive in a 'sad old world'. Running down our armed forces and making ourselves appear vulnerable to aggressors is likely to make our little patch of this world even sadder.
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Post by delphicoracle on Mar 29, 2024 10:12:36 GMT
It's a sad old world when people have to be prepared to kill other people. Very true. But since that's the reality, the question is how to survive in a 'sad old world'. Running down our armed forces and making ourselves appear vulnerable to aggressors is likely to make our little patch of this world even sadder. NATO was supposed to solve this...when the world recognised the value of cooperation. I suspect the normal human state is to think in "patches of the world" which brought about most wars. After the second WW some influential people recognised this and created international organisations which overrode national concerns when necessaty...NATO, the UN, Maritime Law, Courts of Human Rights etc. I have a suspucion that after a generation of RELATIVE peace, under the guidance of these bodies, the idea of shared protected values is breaking down. And that is where warmongers drive their wedges.
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Post by vinny on Mar 29, 2024 10:56:27 GMT
It's a sad old world when people have to be prepared to kill other people. Putin is prepared to kill other people as much as we wish to avoid war. The best way to avoid full blown war is by ensuring that there's no way, conventionally or otherwise, for him to be able to achieve anything from it. It's a bit like a school bully beating up all the other kids and getting money from them. As soon as that bully gets the good hiding of his life and knows it'll be even worse next time if it doesn't stop, it ends. It's a sad old world as you put it. And in order to survive, we require a military to protect us from those who would harm us.
Putin's forces have invaded multiple nations and committed war crimes. It's only a matter of time before there is a shooting war between Russia and NATO unless we're all in such a strong position he doesn't try anything. Large conventional militaries are needed.
Why?
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Post by Zany on Mar 29, 2024 16:46:09 GMT
If you appear soft, you are vulnerable to attack. If you appear strong, nobody will mess with you. Agreed. Being part of a very strong NATO has prevented any of its member from ever being attacked. So second lesson, do not stand alone in the world, make friends, avoid making enemies if possible. Compromise!
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Post by Zany on Mar 29, 2024 18:23:56 GMT
It only works when those in power behave reasonably. When their primary motive is territory and personal image, they wont care about the preparedness of the other side. Thinking of course of Putin I disagree. Had Ukraine been in NATO Putin would have left well alone.
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Post by delphicoracle on Mar 30, 2024 9:17:45 GMT
It only works when those in power behave reasonably. When their primary motive is territory and personal image, they wont care about the preparedness of the other side. Thinking of course of Putin I disagree. Had Ukraine been in NATO Putin would have left well alone. Which is why my message included the benefits of cooperation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2024 21:53:08 GMT
The problem is that we and even more so most other NATO members have gotten used to relying on the umbrella of American protection. As Trump and his followers are demonstrating, this is no longer a given. Democracy itself even in the USA is under threat as never before.
We are now in a world where we might have to be ready to fight without US backing. We and the rest of Europe need to be able to stand together as a strong force without the USA if necessary. Before anyone brings up the EU and Brexit, the free countries of Europe and ourselves cooperating in a military alliance does not require EU membership at all. Just NATO without the USA if necessary. And in any scenario where Europe and we alone have to stand up to Putin, the biggest aces up our sleaves are the independent nuclear arsenals of ourselves and the French. Like all sociopaths Putin cares not one jot about other people. But he values his own ass and knows it only takes one nuke landing in the vicinity of wherever he is hanging out and he is toast.
In the absence of credible backing from the USA, French and British nukes are the best deterrent we have. But we need the capacity to fight conventional wars too and ought to be stepping up our support for Ukraine - and by we I mean all of Europe and not just us - to the point where the USA is not needed anymore. Because US internal politics is making it an unreliable ally. One whose support cannot be taken for granted.
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Post by Zany on Mar 31, 2024 15:35:48 GMT
I disagree. Had Ukraine been in NATO Putin would have left well alone. Which is why my message included the benefits of cooperation. Sorry I missed that. So the conclusion is that you need to be party to a group which are together strong, or stand alone and be very strong yourself.
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Post by Zany on Mar 31, 2024 15:42:58 GMT
The problem is that we and even more so most other NATO members have gotten used to relying on the umbrella of American protection. As Trump and his followers are demonstrating, this is no longer a given. Democracy itself even in the USA is under threat as never before. We are now in a world where me might have to be ready to fight without US backing. We and the rest of Europe need to be able to stand together as a strong force without the USA if necessary. Before anyone brings up the EU and Brexit, the free countries of Europe and ourselves cooperating in a military alliance does not require EU membership at all. Just NATO without the USA if necessary. And in any scenario where Europe and we alone have to stand up to Putin, the biggest aces up our sleaves are the independent nuclear arsenals of ourselves and the French. Like all sociopaths Putin cares not one jot about other people. But he values his own ass and knows it only takes one nuke landing in the vicinity of wherever he is hanging out and he is toast. In the absence of credible backing from the USA, French and British nukes are the best deterrent we have. But we need the capacity to fight conventional wars too and ought to be stepping up our support for Ukraine - and by we I mean all of Europe and not just us - to the point where the USA is not needed anymore. Because US internal politics is making it an unreliable ally. One whose support cannot be taken for granted. It is one place I agree with Trump. That to be a member of Nato you need to contribute an agreed amount to defence. I am reluctant to rely on nuclear weapons because no one will use them and everyone knows that. Putin knows it as well as do we. So basically we agree.
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