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Post by equivocal on Oct 2, 2024 8:44:26 GMT
As far as I know, the description 'Far Right' is not limited to any race or country. I would call what you describe above as 'Religious extremism' rather than 'Far right' but the result is similar. By highlighting how bad it is you surely recognise we don't want 'Far Right' in our country. Well call it religious extremism then but imo there’s little difference between the two,no I wouldn’t want the real far right in our country but the point I’ve tried to make on more than one occasion is that as things stand if nobody acts then there’s a real chance that’s exactly what you’ll get. I think it's fair to say radical Islam is 'Far Right'. I think it's also reasonable to believe the right to religious freedom 'permits' some practices that would otherwise be firmly discouraged in a liberal democracy. I am prepared to be 'on the record' as preferring a policy of acculturation over multiculturism and can clearly see the issues with current levels of immigration, both regular and irregular.
Accepting all of the above and assuming I've understood the issues you believe require action, I genuinely can't see anything so urgent as to push the British into the hands of the Far Right. I suspect the majority of the British would still, as Orwell suggested, laugh at the goose-steppers.
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Post by foldart on Oct 2, 2024 8:56:43 GMT
Well call it religious extremism then but imo there’s little difference between the two,no I wouldn’t want the real far right in our country but the point I’ve tried to make on more than one occasion is that as things stand if nobody acts then there’s a real chance that’s exactly what you’ll get. What are you proposing we do. I would suggest don't vote for them. As it stands there isn’t a party of any substance that I recognise as far right. |
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Post by foldart on Oct 2, 2024 9:13:30 GMT
Well call it religious extremism then but imo there’s little difference between the two,no I wouldn’t want the real far right in our country but the point I’ve tried to make on more than one occasion is that as things stand if nobody acts then there’s a real chance that’s exactly what you’ll get. I think it's fair to say radical Islam is 'Far Right'. I think it's also reasonable to believe the right to religious freedom 'permits' some practices that would otherwise be firmly discouraged in a liberal democracy. I am prepared to be 'on the record' as preferring a policy of acculturation over multiculturism and can clearly see the issues with current levels of immigration, both regular and irregular.
Accepting all of the above and assuming I've understood the issues you believe require action, I genuinely can't see anything so urgent as to push the British into the hands of the Far Right. I suspect the majority of the British would still, as Orwell suggested, laugh at the goose-steppers.
And very well put,though I believe in religious freedom to the extent where it requires women to dress to a code that some even believe is of their own choice is no freedom at all and should be curtailed for many reason other than the actual dress which can impact others. We are not in the Britain of the 1930’s this is now a very different place sadly and the illiberalism of the liberals towards the majority may well drive people to do anything other than laugh at the goose steppers who will have learned the lesson of history and adopt a more subtle approach. Doesnt what’s happening across Europe bother you at all? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2024 9:16:27 GMT
Well call it religious extremism then but imo there’s little difference between the two,no I wouldn’t want the real far right in our country but the point I’ve tried to make on more than one occasion is that as things stand if nobody acts then there’s a real chance that’s exactly what you’ll get. I think it's fair to say radical Islam is 'Far Right'. I think it's also reasonable to believe the right to religious freedom 'permits' some practices that would otherwise be firmly discouraged in a liberal democracy. I am prepared to be 'on the record' as preferring a policy of acculturation over multiculturism and can clearly see the issues with current levels of immigration, both regular and irregular.
Accepting all of the above and assuming I've understood the issues you believe require action, I genuinely can't see anything so urgent as to push the British into the hands of the Far Right. I suspect the majority of the British would still, as Orwell suggested, laugh at the goose-steppers.
I think forcing others to acculture is fairly illiberal, but I accept it's meant in good faith to help people integrate. Those want to preserve their cultures and traditions should be encouraged to do so, including minorities in the isles like those preserving the old Cornish language, Manx, etc, not just foreigners |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2024 9:17:28 GMT
I think it's fair to say radical Islam is 'Far Right'. I think it's also reasonable to believe the right to religious freedom 'permits' some practices that would otherwise be firmly discouraged in a liberal democracy. I am prepared to be 'on the record' as preferring a policy of acculturation over multiculturism and can clearly see the issues with current levels of immigration, both regular and irregular.
Accepting all of the above and assuming I've understood the issues you believe require action, I genuinely can't see anything so urgent as to push the British into the hands of the Far Right. I suspect the majority of the British would still, as Orwell suggested, laugh at the goose-steppers.
And very well put,though I believe in religious freedom to the extent where it requires women to dress to a code that some even believe is of their own choice is no freedom at all and should be curtailed for many reason other than the actual dress which can impact others. We are not in the Britain of the 1930’s this is now a very different place sadly and the illiberalism of the liberals towards the majority may well drive people to do anything other than laugh at the goose steppers who will have learned the lesson of history and adopt a more subtle approach. Doesnt what’s happening across Europe bother you at all? It seems illiberal to force people to dress in a certain way, or to prohibit it Prohibiting the hijab is very much illiberal, just as forcing it on women is. But I accept the intent is well-meant in both cases. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2024 9:34:44 GMT
I'm a religious extremist and extreme religious hypocrite, bad egg and nobody - as well as very much illiberal.
Those who devoutly follow their religions and try their best to be good people everyday, should not be associated with me, or tarred with the same brush. They are good people - both Christians and others such as Muslims
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Post by equivocal on Oct 2, 2024 9:42:23 GMT
I think it's fair to say radical Islam is 'Far Right'. I think it's also reasonable to believe the right to religious freedom 'permits' some practices that would otherwise be firmly discouraged in a liberal democracy. I am prepared to be 'on the record' as preferring a policy of acculturation over multiculturism and can clearly see the issues with current levels of immigration, both regular and irregular.
Accepting all of the above and assuming I've understood the issues you believe require action, I genuinely can't see anything so urgent as to push the British into the hands of the Far Right. I suspect the majority of the British would still, as Orwell suggested, laugh at the goose-steppers.
And very well put,though I believe in religious freedom to the extent where it requires women to dress to a code that some even believe is of their own choice is no freedom at all and should be curtailed for many reason other than the actual dress which can impact others. We are not in the Britain of the 1930’s this is now a very different place sadly and the illiberalism of the liberals towards the majority may well drive people to do anything other than laugh at the goose steppers who will have learned the lesson of history and adopt a more subtle approach. Doesnt what’s happening across Europe bother you at all? I'm not sure what you mean by the illiberalism of the liberals to the majority. Would you mind expanding?
As to Europe; I think difficult economic conditions for, if you like, the rank and file tend to push some towards a 'blame mentality' which, I believe, feeds into Far Right sentiments. These Far Right parties in Europe then gain substantial power based on proportional representation. As you said earlier, we don't presently have any substantially Far Right parties and, with hopefully improving finances, I can't see that changing. Whether the situation in Europe is likely to change, I really don't know.
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Post by equivocal on Oct 2, 2024 9:46:28 GMT
I think it's fair to say radical Islam is 'Far Right'. I think it's also reasonable to believe the right to religious freedom 'permits' some practices that would otherwise be firmly discouraged in a liberal democracy. I am prepared to be 'on the record' as preferring a policy of acculturation over multiculturism and can clearly see the issues with current levels of immigration, both regular and irregular.
Accepting all of the above and assuming I've understood the issues you believe require action, I genuinely can't see anything so urgent as to push the British into the hands of the Far Right. I suspect the majority of the British would still, as Orwell suggested, laugh at the goose-steppers.
I think forcing others to acculture is fairly illiberal, but I accept it's meant in good faith to help people integrate. Those want to preserve their cultures and traditions should be encouraged to do so, including minorities in the isles like those preserving the old Cornish language, Manx, etc, not just foreigners Interesting; isn't it? Is it illiberal to discourage cultural norms that are in and of themselves illiberal? |
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Post by Saint on Oct 2, 2024 10:38:39 GMT
The far right are good people? I've heard it all now. Even the far right don't want to be described as far right. Your typical xenophobic, homophobic, war-mongering, 'lock ‘em up and throw away the key', 'know your place', intolerant, imperialistic, gun-toting (or wannabe gun-toting), bible-bashing and flag-shagging far-righter is, on the whole, not a very endearing individual. Ok to break that down xenophobic. Would you describe that as people who would see that their religion must be supreme above all others. Homophobic. Throw them off a building War mongering Kill the unbelievers Lock ‘em up and throw away the key. Really see homophobic Know your place Yes woman you will wear the niqab,hijab or burka as appropriate to how intolerant the man is but woman you will wear one of those and oh you will be religious and worship but not with the men. Intolerant There is only one god allah and you will be destroyed because Islam must prevail imperialistic. See above Gun toting Isis bible bashing. Koran bashing Flag shagging. Yes isis do and the flag reads There is no god but Allah [God]. Mohammad is the messenger of Allah.” Now having listed all that you could call the list far right or islamaphobia,many probably would but isn’t your description of far right applicable to that list? Acknowledging that not all followers of that religion behave or believe in that in total but given human behaviour seeing criticism of it as an attack on all are more likely to turn a blind eye?To that in bold You could say the same of those who see the danger of a threat to their culture and wish to see an end to mass immigration but given that human nature doesn’t it just show that mass immigration is a mistake. I hope you really understand. Can fundamentalist Muslims fairly be described as far-right? Possibly, I suppose. Are they just as bad? Yes. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2024 10:55:23 GMT
On some positions I'd be a religious extremist and considered far-right, on others far-left and on many centrist
Many people can be considered based on one or two positions they hold, or even more than that, not sure tarring everyone who disagrees as this or that is helpful, but I am much worse than all that anyway - and those religious devotees are unlike me and are good people, so are the far right. Nothing wrong with being patriotic.
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Post by Saint on Oct 2, 2024 11:12:25 GMT
On some positions I'd be a religious extremist and considered far-right, on others far-left and on many centrist Many people can be considered based on one or two positions they hold, or even more than that, not sure tarring everyone who disagrees as this or that is helpful, but I am much worse than all that anyway - and those religious devotees are unlike me and are good people, so are the far right. Nothing wrong with being patriotic. No, there is nothing wrong with being patriotic. But patriotism and nationalism aren't the same thing. In the context of Western liberal democracies, patriotism means dedication to the liberal idea that all, regardless of ethnicity, are deserving of equal standing. Nationalism, a hallmark of the far right, takes the view that some groups within a country are inherently more deserving by virtue of their ethnicity. I'm not sure I've done that justice. Here's a better explanation: theconversation.com/what-is-the-difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism-208170 |
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Post by Saint on Oct 2, 2024 11:31:27 GMT
I think forcing others to acculture is fairly illiberal, but I accept it's meant in good faith to help people integrate. Those want to preserve their cultures and traditions should be encouraged to do so, including minorities in the isles like those preserving the old Cornish language, Manx, etc, not just foreigners Interesting; isn't it? Is it illiberal to discourage cultural norms that are in and of themselves illiberal? I wouldn't have thought so. To be one thing or the other is to reject contrary possibilities. To be a democrat, I must reject dictatorship. To be a liberal, I must reject illiberalism. Rejecting illiberalism is the very essence of liberalism. If one condones illiberalism, one is not a liberal. |
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Post by equivocal on Oct 2, 2024 12:24:17 GMT
Interesting; isn't it? Is it illiberal to discourage cultural norms that are in and of themselves illiberal? I wouldn't have thought so. To be one thing or the other is to reject contrary possibilities. To be a democrat, I must reject dictatorship. To be a liberal, I must reject illiberalism. Rejecting illiberalism is the very essence of liberalism. If one condones illiberalism, one is not a liberal. I tend to agree. I think it follows that it should not be illiberal for a liberal democratic state to require new arrivals to abandon illiberal aspects of their former countries' culture(s). |
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Post by foldart on Oct 2, 2024 14:06:06 GMT
And very well put,though I believe in religious freedom to the extent where it requires women to dress to a code that some even believe is of their own choice is no freedom at all and should be curtailed for many reason other than the actual dress which can impact others. We are not in the Britain of the 1930’s this is now a very different place sadly and the illiberalism of the liberals towards the majority may well drive people to do anything other than laugh at the goose steppers who will have learned the lesson of history and adopt a more subtle approach. Doesnt what’s happening across Europe bother you at all? I'm not sure what you mean by the illiberalism of the liberals to the majority. Would you mind expanding? As to Europe; I think difficult economic conditions for, if you like, the rank and file tend to push some towards a 'blame mentality' which, I believe, feeds into Far Right sentiments. These Far Right parties in Europe then gain substantial power based on proportional representation. As you said earlier, we don't presently have any substantially Far Right parties and, with hopefully improving finances, I can't see that changing. Whether the situation in Europe is likely to change, I really don't know.
What do I mean by illiberaism of the liberals,well it is the attitudes of the Westminster classes and some media who dismiss the real fears of ordinary people or even worse describe it as unconscious bias or racism. An example? I was reading recently of a group of people contacted by the bbc from a small town regards the lack of any control over immigration,what they got in reply to the beebs questions was polite reasoned arguments for why they held the views they did,they looked forward to it being aired and what happened? Well nothing because they wanted some Tommy Robinson rant and raves and got nothing of the kind. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2024 14:12:59 GMT
On some positions I'd be a religious extremist and considered far-right, on others far-left and on many centrist Many people can be considered based on one or two positions they hold, or even more than that, not sure tarring everyone who disagrees as this or that is helpful, but I am much worse than all that anyway - and those religious devotees are unlike me and are good people, so are the far right. Nothing wrong with being patriotic. No, there is nothing wrong with being patriotic. But patriotism and nationalism aren't the same thing. In the context of Western liberal democracies, patriotism means dedication to the liberal idea that all, regardless of ethnicity, are deserving of equal standing. Nationalism, a hallmark of the far right, takes the view that some groups within a country are inherently more deserving by virtue of their ethnicity. I'm not sure I've done that justice. Here's a better explanation: theconversation.com/what-is-the-difference-between-nationalism-and-patriotism-208170That's not true about nationalism. First result on Google. |
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