|
|
Post by Zany on Apr 7, 2024 11:59:17 GMT
China wouldn't produce so much if nobody was buying it. The pollution is the responsibility of the consumer. I understand the principle. What i'm highlighting is the use of a variable principle / standard. When the British Empire produces goods for half the planet, those emissions are the responsibility of the British. However, when the Chinese produce goods for the British, those emissions are also the responsibility of the British . Do you see the pattern? Yes. But the question was never raised at the time because it didn't matter. History can advise but its not today, things change. If you are looking at the cause of Co2 production and how to stop it, you cannot ship your production to another country and then point the finger at them for the pollution. |
|
|
|
Post by montegriffo on Apr 7, 2024 12:02:06 GMT
If a product reflected the true cost (environmental) then the product with the lowest carbon footprint would be the cheapest.
That's the best incentive manufacturers could have to be as green as they can be.
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 13:39:08 GMT
I understand the principle. What i'm highlighting is the use of a variable principle / standard. When the British Empire produces goods for half the planet, those emissions are the responsibility of the British. However, when the Chinese produce goods for the British, those emissions are also the responsibility of the British . Do you see the pattern? If you are looking at the cause of Co2 production and how to stop it, you cannot ship your production to another country and then point the finger at them for the pollution. I didn't do either. I don't think it's any more a crime for the Chinese to produce goods than it was for the British. I'm pointing out how you are engaging in highly motivated (lopsided) finger pointing |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 13:42:11 GMT
If a product reflected the true cost (environmental) then the product with the lowest carbon footprint would be the cheapest. That's the best incentive manufacturers could have to be as green as they can be. Sure. The problem with this is that Earth's resources, and rights to exist on it, would have to be administrated and granted by a single Supreme Commander |
|
|
|
Post by montegriffo on Apr 7, 2024 13:47:44 GMT
No, just need WTO tariffs to reflect CO2 emissions.
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 14:56:59 GMT
No, just need WTO tariffs to reflect CO2 emissions. And enforced globally Funny how many leftists feel that, if they use different words, the reality changes |
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Apr 7, 2024 14:58:55 GMT
If you are looking at the cause of Co2 production and how to stop it, you cannot ship your production to another country and then point the finger at them for the pollution. I didn't do either. I don't think it's any more a crime for the Chinese to produce goods than it was for the British. I'm pointing out how you are engaging in highly motivated (lopsided) finger pointing You've had it explained three times now. If you still can't move on from your original incorrect assumption I shall have to assume you cannot. |
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Apr 7, 2024 15:01:25 GMT
No, just need WTO tariffs to reflect CO2 emissions. And enforced globally Funny how many leftists feel that, if they use different words, the reality changes Sure. The problem with this is that Earth's resources, and rights to exist on it, would have to be administrated and granted by a single Supreme Commander Its funny how righties don't seem to have the power of thought beyond the end of their noses. We could easily put tariffs on goods with a carbon footprint from anywhere in the world. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 15:08:25 GMT
And enforced globally Funny how many leftists feel that, if they use different words, the reality changes Its funny how righties don't seem to have the power of thought beyond the end of their noses. We could easily put tariffs on goods with a carbon footprint from anywhere in the world. Sure we could. That wouldn't stop China and Russia from trading without such tariffs. What are you going to do, bomb them? Also such an arrangement is open to some pretty simple avoidance- a tariff goes somewhere. The notion is so rickety, it's hard to say whether it should be criticised first for not doing its job even if were applied or being an example of what I described if it were applied. |
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Apr 7, 2024 18:57:16 GMT
Its funny how righties don't seem to have the power of thought beyond the end of their noses. We could easily put tariffs on goods with a carbon footprint from anywhere in the world. Sure we could. That wouldn't stop China and Russia from trading without such tariffs. What are you going to do, bomb them? Also such an arrangement is open to some pretty simple avoidance- a tariff goes somewhere. The notion is so rickety, it's hard to say whether it should be criticised first for not doing its job even if were applied or being an example of what I described if it were applied. Yes of course they could, but I never claimed we could do it alone. However with Europe and America that's a lot of purchasing power. And it doesn't matter if China sells to Russia because their factories are going to want to sell to the West where the money is, so the Russians will get low carbon footprint products courtesy of us in the West. The idea works just fine, its cousin is already in place across the EU where a group of countries agreed not to undercut each other and placed tariffs on cheaper Chinese goods to stop that happening. We also do it to an extent with fair trade and anti slavery rules on products from Africa. There is always avoidance, but if we scrapped every measure that carried avoidance we would live in a nightmare unlawful world. |
|
|
|
Post by montegriffo on Apr 7, 2024 19:05:24 GMT
No, just need WTO tariffs to reflect CO2 emissions. And enforced globally Funny how many leftists feel that, if they use different words, the reality changes Funny how many libertarians think the best thing to do is always nothing. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 20:42:00 GMT
Sure we could. That wouldn't stop China and Russia from trading without such tariffs. What are you going to do, bomb them? Also such an arrangement is open to some pretty simple avoidance- a tariff goes somewhere. The notion is so rickety, it's hard to say whether it should be criticised first for not doing its job even if were applied or being an example of what I described if it were applied. Yes of course they could, but I never claimed we could do it alone. However with Europe and America that's a lot of purchasing power. And it doesn't matter if China sells to Russia because their factories are going to want to sell to the West where the money is, so the Russians will get low carbon footprint products courtesy of us in the West. My original point was that it couldn't be achieved without the entire world essentially being buckled under one command structure - to enforce compliance. Here you explain how it could be achieved by buckling the world under one command structure. Btw - of course it matters that large parts of world are going to not bother - those parts of the world will now have a competitive advantage over you . It is the stable cartel problem. Very hard to get it to work without using physical force |
|
|
|
Post by Zany on Apr 7, 2024 21:04:58 GMT
Yes of course they could, but I never claimed we could do it alone. However with Europe and America that's a lot of purchasing power. And it doesn't matter if China sells to Russia because their factories are going to want to sell to the West where the money is, so the Russians will get low carbon footprint products courtesy of us in the West. My original point was that it couldn't be achieved without the entire world essentially being buckled under one command structure - to enforce compliance. Here you explain how it could be achieved by buckling the world under one command structure. Btw - of course it matters that large parts of world are going to not bother - those parts of the world will now have a competitive advantage over you . It is the stable cartel problem. Very hard to get it to work without using physical force Its called cooperation. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 7, 2024 21:52:49 GMT
lol
|
|
