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Post by Saint on Jun 28, 2024 9:43:16 GMT
It's amazing how many of the nations most consistently found to be the most democratic in the world are in the supposedly undemocratic EU. Ranking, with 1 being the most democratic (from 2020): 1) Norway 2) New Zealand 3) Iceland 4) Sweden 5) Finland 6) Denmark 7) Ireland 8) Switzerland 9) Netherlands 10) Taiwan worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democracy-countries
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2024 13:28:43 GMT
Well, no 1 only has an association with the EU and is in the EEA - and NZ isn't in the EU, Iceland also isn't a full member of the EU either, it has EEA membership and is part of the Schengen area; one of their ministers terminated EU accession in 2015.
Seems kind of self-defeating IMHO.
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Post by Saint on Jul 5, 2024 13:36:46 GMT
Well, no 1 only has an association with the EU and is in the EEA - and NZ isn't in the EU, Iceland also isn't a full member of the EU either, it has EEA membership and is part of the Schengen area; one of their ministers terminated EU accession in 2015. Seems kind of self-defeating IMHO. Strange conclusion given the OP.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2024 13:55:20 GMT
The top 3 aren't in the EU, one of them deliberately chose not to become a full member of the EU in 2015.
How is that a strange conclusion?
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Post by Saint on Jul 5, 2024 15:16:06 GMT
The top 3 aren't in the EU, one of them deliberately chose not to become a full member of the EU in 2015. How is that a strange conclusion? Read the OP again. It remarks that some of the most democratic countries in the world are in the EU. The fact that some of the most democratic countries, including the most democratic, aren't in the EU doesn't change that fact.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2024 15:22:34 GMT
Fair enough, but only 5 out of 10 in that list are actually in the EU. There's no reason to think they're in that list because the EU is either democratic or undemocratic, maybe they just happened to be more democratic than their counterparts in the EU? The EU doesn't affect that one way or the other
Would you say Hungary who suspended democracy in COVID is particularly democratic? They're in the EU for example. Maybe you'd say Italy under Meloni or more recently Poland under the PiS (who recently lost their majority) - also both in the EU - are also very democratic despite being in the EU?
Not a good marker for whether something is democratic or not - its membership of the bloc
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Post by Saint on Jul 5, 2024 15:30:40 GMT
Fair enough, but only 5 out of 10 in that list are actually in the EU. There's no reason to think they're in that list because the EU is either democratic or undemocratic, maybe they just happened to be more democratic than their counterparts in the EU? The EU doesn't affect that one way or the other Would you say Hungary who suspended democracy in COVID is particularly democratic? They're in the EU for example. Maybe you'd say Italy under Meloni or more recently Poland under the PiS (who recently lost their majority) - also both in the EU - are also very democratic despite being in the EU? Not a good marker for whether something is democratic or not - its membership of the bloc I merely note that some of the most democratic nations in the world are in the EU. Membership of the EU hasn't stopped their being on the list of the most democratic nations in the world. In fact, the same organisation classes Western Europe as the most democratic region in the world. So, how undemocratic can the EU be if several of the most democratic nations in the world can be subject to it yet remain the most democratic nations in the world? How undemocratic can be it be if it is attractive to nations that obviously value democracy very highly?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2024 15:51:11 GMT
Maybe they need to be a part of it to maintain trade links? They need to be a part of it to lower red tape when negotiating with other nations? It's also hilarious, if you read the fuller list, that the UK is listed as a 'full democracy' around the top echelon too, given the heavy restrictions on protest we've seen of late. And France is also listed as a full democracy, yet stuff like this happens when you criticise Macron on Facebook. France 24 LinkFrance is listed as a 'full democracy' despite the recent restrictions on protest, free speech and much else. I'd question the accuracy of that link. France bans all pro-Palestinian protests - CNNSeriously? What are they thinking?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2024 16:20:13 GMT
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Post by Saint on Jul 5, 2024 17:57:20 GMT
IMHO, if you want to 'sell' the EU it's best to just say it prevents world war in as much as it can and leave it at that, don't go looking for reasons to say the EU isn't corrupt or has democracy at its heart, it really doesn't. It's just better than the alternatives Sorry, I don't agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2024 19:06:02 GMT
The difference is I have proof on my side
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Post by Zany on Jul 5, 2024 19:07:33 GMT
My view of why the EU (faults and all) is that it is necessary for the preservation of its members against the other growing and powerful super powers. A method to allow trade without destroying employment and living standards of its members.
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Post by Saint on Jul 5, 2024 19:10:50 GMT
The difference is I have proof on my side Proof of what?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2024 19:20:02 GMT
My view of why the EU (faults and all) is that it is necessary for the preservation of its members against the other growing and powerful super powers. A method to allow trade without destroying employment and living standards of its members. That is part of preventing world war Remember Weimar Germany? Harsh reparations? The idea is not to allow any of the member states to fall that far behind, also to defuse any potential conflicts between them that could erupt into war taking factions with them
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2024 19:22:33 GMT
The difference is I have proof on my side Proof of what? All my claims? I mean, what more would you like proven? Does this help underline the point by Euronews? Less than half of EU countries are 'fully democratic': reportOr EU experts themselves saying it has a 'democratic deficit' - Brussels TimesThis may be helpful reading: WikiThe EU is constantly reforming itself and trying to become more democratic, depending on who's in charge, with Juncker things were getting better - not so with Ursula Von Der Leyen, who may be about to be criminally charged. She's not in charge of the EU because no one is, but at the moment some of the top figures include her and Orban as EU council president (the EU council presidency is rotating). That's not good, there is a democratic deficit in the EU - pro-EU experts will tell you this as much as I will, so I'm not sure why you think they're wrong. But then from what I've seen, your thing on here is mostly trolling the "gammons" rather than debating facts. The member states mostly determine the direction of the EU, currently they include France (outlawing all pro Palestine protests), Germany (criminalising anyone who speaks out about Gaza etc) and many others who are starting to clamp down on civil liberties. It's a poor direction to go in. By the way, the EU even has its own Rwanda style schemes that have existed for many years, are you going to suggest that's what democratic countries engage in doing? Shipping migrants abroad?
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