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Post by RedRum on Apr 29, 2024 10:13:16 GMT
What is it with western governments that see them all bending over and taking whatever Israel sends their way, losing all their credibility in humanitarian law?
Our esteemed unelected foreign secretary Lord Cameron of hypocrisy, when asked what we would do if a diplomatic building was attacked by a foreign power replied with a straight face, "we would respond with great force", this after he had condemned Iran as terrorists for doing exactly that. Or the hypocrisy of, when being told that mass graves had been dug up and some of the corpses had their hands tied behind their backs, replied that we would have to wait for Israel to carry out an investigation into it before condemning it, this after UNRWA was defunded immediately after Israel had claimed a number of UNRWA employees had taken part in the awful October 7th massacre with no evidence whatsoever. In the states the senate has ruled the protests for peace are anti-Semitic just days after Netanyahu had been on TV calling the peace protesters Nazis. "From the river to the sea" is now deemed as anti-Semitic unless uttered by Israel declaring their wish to eradicate all Palestinians and we just blindly accept it.
Is it collective guilt for what happened to the Jewish people at the hands of the Nazis?
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Post by cartertonian on Apr 29, 2024 11:57:06 GMT
I'm just thinking out loud...but the impression I have always had is that Western Governments see Israel as an isolated and threatened outpost of the norms of Western civilisation and culture (not that they are compliant with those norms at the moment!), surrounded on all sides by the mostly hostile Arab world. A small part of my academic career was spent working with the Dept of War Studies at KCL and reflected in several of my essays for my first MSc. One of the books I acquired during that time was, 'Another Bloody Century', by Prof Colin Gray of Uni of Surrey. Essentially, the book is about trying to predict where future conflicts are likely to originate and why. Amongst his many suggestions, there is a clear link between what we used to call 'the third world' and Islamic countries. In Gray's view, this is because those countries are deprived and underdeveloped AND adherents to Islam as the state religion. I regard much of the right-wing rhetoric about Great Replacement Theory and other conspiracy nonsense with the appropriate disdain and contempt, but as an academic I am cautious about a total dismissal of the underlying concerns. However theoretical and slight it may be, there IS a threat to Western democracy. I imagine that Western governments and their intelligence agencies are therefore predisposed to helping Israel hold the 'front line'. I should clarify that I don't agree with how they're doing it
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2024 12:15:40 GMT
The problem is that western nation tax payers, especially those in the USA, are funding billions of dollars in both military and economic aid to Israel, vastly more per head than any other nation receives. And some of this money is channelled back to buy western politicians, many of whom in Congress and the Senate thus partly rely on Israeli money which originally came from US taxpayers to fund their own expensive election campaigns. Quid pro quo means that these politicians will always defend and excuse Israel and never sanction it. This situation tends to bind the hand of presidents, some of whom probably also rely on Israeli money to contribute to the funding of their campaigns.
And it is not just in America. A few years ago there was recorded video footage of a Labour MP, Ruth Smeeth, taking a big wad of cash from an Israeli diplomat from their embassy to promote the interests of Israel, which certainly looked dodgy as hell and is the sort of thing that seems to be happening. The reach of the powers that be seems quite long too, since that video appears to have disappeared without trace. Either the video itself was fake, or it is a glimpse into what is happening that had to be silenced. Tellingly, no one ever denied that the video was real at the time. It just appears to have disappeared.
In a nutshell, western taxpayers are funding vast sums being given to Israel, and some of that money is being used by Israel to buy our politicians. But going public with this truth without the protection of anonymity risks you being called an antisemite. Which is how a free and frank discussion about unhealthy situations regarding the subversion of our legislatures is being shut down.
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Post by RedRum on Apr 29, 2024 12:17:49 GMT
The west put Israel where it is and oversaw some horrific treatment of the Arabs in Palestine.
My point is, though, why are the west bending over backwards to defend Israel, are the governments that stupid not to see what is going on and the result will not be good for those that have contributed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2024 12:26:04 GMT
Additionally, many Jewish citizens of western nations tend to act as an Israeli fifth column, always ready to smear with charges of antisemitism anyone who is critical of Israel, and applying pro-Israeli pressure on our elected governments.
Not all Jews of course are automatic supporters of the actions of Israel. Some, especially on the left, are highly critical of it. But these are effectively silenced by trumped up charges of antisemitism. Many left leaning Jewish members of the Labour party for example have been expelled for supposed antisemitism. In spite of being Jewish themselves. Their crime mostly being to speak unwelcome truths. In this way even Jewish critics of Israel are being silenced on trumped up charges of antisemitism, mostly by politicians who are in some way in the pocket of Israel.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2024 12:27:22 GMT
The west put Israel where it is and oversaw some horrific treatment of the Arabs in Palestine. My point is, though, why are the west bending over backwards to defend Israel, are the governments that stupid not to see what is going on and the result will not be good for those that have contributed. Many western politicians are in the pocket of Israel which helps fund many of them. Therein lies the reason.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 29, 2024 13:01:37 GMT
The west put Israel where it is and oversaw some horrific treatment of the Arabs in Palestine. My point is, though, why are the west bending over backwards to defend Israel, are the governments that stupid not to see what is going on and the result will not be good for those that have contributed. It's the 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' fallacy
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Post by RedRum on Apr 29, 2024 14:43:25 GMT
The west put Israel where it is and oversaw some horrific treatment of the Arabs in Palestine. My point is, though, why are the west bending over backwards to defend Israel, are the governments that stupid not to see what is going on and the result will not be good for those that have contributed. Many western politicians are in the pocket of Israel which helps fund many of them. Therein lies the reason. I agree but there is going to come a time when the truth comes out, western governments know this but continue to support Israel to the hilt. Are we, who believe Israel are committing war crimes, missing something?
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Post by RedRum on Apr 29, 2024 14:45:33 GMT
The west put Israel where it is and oversaw some horrific treatment of the Arabs in Palestine. My point is, though, why are the west bending over backwards to defend Israel, are the governments that stupid not to see what is going on and the result will not be good for those that have contributed. It's the 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' fallacy I assume you mean Hamas by 'my enemy's enemy' but Hamas are openly the enemy of the west including those that oppose Israel's actions.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2024 15:55:05 GMT
Many western politicians are in the pocket of Israel which helps fund many of them. Therein lies the reason. I agree but there is going to come a time when the truth comes out, western governments know this but continue to support Israel to the hilt. Are we, who believe Israel are committing war crimes, missing something? The only thing we are missing is the gullibility of a large share of the electorate who are readily told what to think and what to emote against. When the abuses of Israel become so glaring that they have to be acknowledged because they have reached a point where even the most gullible elements can see what is going on, the politicians will bend just a little bit in an anti-Israeli direction, though mostly just by words and not action, and only as far as they feel they have to. Let's face it, many of our leaders are in Israel's pocket, and many of the public have contracted their thinking out to these leaders' media supporters, and have done for decades. That is explanation enough for how they are getting away with it.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 29, 2024 16:20:46 GMT
It's the 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' fallacy I assume you mean Hamas by 'my enemy's enemy' but Hamas are openly the enemy of the west including those that oppose Israel's actions. Not what i said at all. The enemy was once Soviet aligned nations like Egypt so the West aligned with Israel. Now the enemy is Iran and their proxies and once again the West aligns with Israel as the enemy of our enemy. It's at best a very short sighted strategy, for a start because for over 50 years now Israel has been the recruiting sergeant for our enemies.
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Post by Orac on Apr 29, 2024 17:10:54 GMT
I find the idea that current western governments are defending western values to be a little far fetched. There is little sign of them doing anything of the sort - quite the converse
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Post by RedRum on Apr 29, 2024 17:58:49 GMT
I assume you mean Hamas by 'my enemy's enemy' but Hamas are openly the enemy of the west including those that oppose Israel's actions. Not what i said at all. The enemy was once Soviet aligned nations like Egypt so the West aligned with Israel. Now the enemy is Iran and their proxies and once again the West aligns with Israel as the enemy of our enemy. It's at best a very short sighted strategy, for a start because for over 50 years now Israel has been the recruiting sergeant for our enemies. Sorry but you did not make that clear. I am not sure the west 'aligned' with Israel more a case of 'we have to support them, we created them' but why are we ignoring the evidence that is in front of us and allowing Israel to do what it is doing. There is another clip, in the US, of a 'gentleman' carrying an Israeli flag in amongst a pro Palestine sit in, chanting "kill the Jews" in an obvious attempt to get the crowd chanting, 100 people that told him to shut up were arrested.
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Post by RedRum on Apr 29, 2024 18:00:21 GMT
I find the idea that current western governments are defending western values to be a little far fetched. There is little sign of them doing anything of the sort - quite the converse The Israeli government is taking us for mugs and in the process endangering Jewish lives.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 29, 2024 18:01:17 GMT
Look at how the French armed them for years, look at how we conspired with them to launch that murderous Suez war
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