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Post by Zany on Apr 21, 2024 8:34:56 GMT
To reduce the need to switch away from gas so quickly could we run heat pumps on gas?
A heat pump works by extracting heat from the air outside your home, concentrating it and pumping it into your home.
Modern heat pumps produce roughly 4kw of heat for every 1kw of energy put in.
This would be far more efficient than the best gas boilers available.
Question. Should the government switch spending for the time being from building more renewable energy sources and extending the national grid, into helping people get changed over to multifueled heat pumps.
There is another advantage in this, that heat pumps are far more expensive where they need to heat water up to 60 degrees. If you used gas for heat pumps then your water could be heated in the old way, but the majority of the energy you use (heating your home) could be done with the far more efficient heat pump.
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Post by equivocal on Apr 21, 2024 8:40:52 GMT
Given heat pumps are refrigerators in reverse and, when I was a child my parents had a gas powered refrigerator, I'd say yes.
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Post by Zany on Apr 21, 2024 9:13:10 GMT
Given heat pumps are refrigerators in reverse and, when I was a child my parents had a gas powered refrigerator, I'd say yes.
Yes I found that it already existed. The question is more subtle. Is this better than the straight switch to electricity. For me mainly, the colossal difference in cost between these.  and these  The 1st is around £1,800 warm air heating the Second £4,800.central heating. And that £4,800 assumes you can use the same radiators etc. |
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Post by equivocal on Apr 21, 2024 9:29:29 GMT
Given heat pumps are refrigerators in reverse and, when I was a child my parents had a gas powered refrigerator, I'd say yes.
Yes I found that it already existed. The question is more subtle. Is this better than the straight switch to electricity. For me mainly, the colossal difference in cost between these. and these The 1st is around £1,800 warm air heating the Second £4,800.central heating. And that £4,800 assumes you can use the same radiators etc. I don't know enough about the build up the of price structure, but I think your 'hybrid' idea may have legs. Particularly considering the absorption system can use any heat source. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,698
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Post by Steve on Apr 21, 2024 13:11:08 GMT
Given heat pumps are refrigerators in reverse and, when I was a child my parents had a gas powered refrigerator, I'd say yes.
Yes I found that it already existed. The question is more subtle. Is this better than the straight switch to electricity. For me mainly, the colossal difference in cost between these. and these The 1st is around £1,800 warm air heating the Second £4,800.central heating. And that £4,800 assumes you can use the same radiators etc. Amazingly you can still but gas powered refrigerators. Amazon will sell you a big one for just over £1.1k. They're really aimed at large campervans - but I digress I like your hybrid idea because yes there is a difference in temperatures needed for different uses but maybe some sort of Peltier effect array would be better than using gas to create differential temperatures. That said though I'm unconvinced heat pumps in general are a widespread solution - a lot of people live in flats or other homes without a good external to internal area ratio. |
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Post by Zany on Apr 21, 2024 17:06:52 GMT
Yes I found that it already existed. The question is more subtle. Is this better than the straight switch to electricity. For me mainly, the colossal difference in cost between these. and these The 1st is around £1,800 warm air heating the Second £4,800.central heating. And that £4,800 assumes you can use the same radiators etc. Amazingly you can still but gas powered refrigerators. Amazon will sell you a big one for just over £1.1k. They're really aimed at large campervans - but I digress I like your hybrid idea because yes there is a difference in temperatures needed for different uses but maybe some sort of Peltier effect array would be better than using gas to create differential temperatures. That said though I'm unconvinced heat pumps in general are a widespread solution - a lot of people live in flats or other homes without a good external to internal area ratio. The Peltier effect is less efficient than a normal heat pump compressor and not so scalable. Might be able to use it as a secondary heating stage for hot water? I agree on some flats, but the external area you need is about 4 square mtrs of blank wall for an average 3 bed semi. But personally I think we need to focus on units where both halves are internal like this.  A big advantage is they come pre pressurized so you don't need a expert to install them. A local builder or a competent Diy-er can do it. |
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Post by equivocal on Apr 21, 2024 18:31:00 GMT
Amazingly you can still but gas powered refrigerators. Amazon will sell you a big one for just over £1.1k. They're really aimed at large campervans - but I digress I like your hybrid idea because yes there is a difference in temperatures needed for different uses but maybe some sort of Peltier effect array would be better than using gas to create differential temperatures. That said though I'm unconvinced heat pumps in general are a widespread solution - a lot of people live in flats or other homes without a good external to internal area ratio. The Peltier effect is less efficient than a normal heat pump compressor and not so scalable. Might be able to use it as a secondary heating stage for hot water? I agree on some flats, but the external area you need is about 4 square mtrs of blank wall for an average 3 bed semi. But personally I think we need to focus on units where both halves are internal like this. A big advantage is they come pre pressurized so you don't need a expert to install them. A local builder or a competent Diy-er can do it. What do you use for domestic hot water and space heating in your bathrooms? |
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Post by Zany on Apr 21, 2024 19:05:04 GMT
The Peltier effect is less efficient than a normal heat pump compressor and not so scalable. Might be able to use it as a secondary heating stage for hot water? I agree on some flats, but the external area you need is about 4 square mtrs of blank wall for an average 3 bed semi. But personally I think we need to focus on units where both halves are internal like this. A big advantage is they come pre pressurized so you don't need a expert to install them. A local builder or a competent Diy-er can do it. What do you use for domestic hot water and space heating in your bathrooms? So. Me personally, I have three heat pumps around my home and my water is heated with an high efficiency electric boiler which runs 25 minutes twice a day each time giving me 40 ltrs of hot water ( I like a bath every day, my treat) Back on subject, the device I would aspire to does not exist yet. So lets build one  build A:(Existing homes) Keep your existing boiler, but use it only to heat your hot water, add heat pumps as above to heat your home using electricity. build B: New boiler needed, existing home) A slightly larger indoor unit (boiler size) Gas driven heat pump and a gas water boiler all in one. Plus two more heat pumps gas or electrically powered. build c? |
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Post by equivocal on Apr 21, 2024 19:11:57 GMT
What do you use for domestic hot water and space heating in your bathrooms? So. Me personally, I have three heat pumps around my home and my water is heated with an high efficiency electric boiler which runs 25 minutes twice a day each time giving me 40 ltrs of hot water ( I like a bath every day, my treat) Back on subject, the device I would aspire to does not exist yet. So lets build one build A:(Existing homes) Keep your existing boiler, but use it only to heat your hot water, add heat pumps as above to heat your home using electricity. build B: New boiler needed, existing home) A slightly larger indoor unit (boiler size) Gas driven heat pump and a gas water boiler all in one. Plus two more heat pumps gas or electrically powered. build c? And, space hearting in your bathrooms?
As I said, I think there is definitely something in your hybrid idea. As far as designing systems, I'll read with interest.
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Post by Zany on Apr 21, 2024 19:32:44 GMT
So. Me personally, I have three heat pumps around my home and my water is heated with an high efficiency electric boiler which runs 25 minutes twice a day each time giving me 40 ltrs of hot water ( I like a bath every day, my treat) Back on subject, the device I would aspire to does not exist yet. So lets build one build A:(Existing homes) Keep your existing boiler, but use it only to heat your hot water, add heat pumps as above to heat your home using electricity. build B: New boiler needed, existing home) A slightly larger indoor unit (boiler size) Gas driven heat pump and a gas water boiler all in one. Plus two more heat pumps gas or electrically powered. build c? And, space hearting in your bathrooms?
As I said, I think there is definitely something in your hybrid idea. As far as designing systems, I'll read with interest.
In my home the heating is very different to what you think of with boilers and radiators. The units blow air at a steady 22 degrees (in our case) all day rather than the standard radiator which heats to 50 degrees then slowly cools as it gives up heat the room, before heating up again. My system also pumps 16 degree air (when needed) all night. I explain this because it means our whole house stays at that fixed temperature. We don't need separate heating in each room so our bathrooms do not need space heaters. I suppose if you wanted to raise them higher than the norm, you could put a normal electric heater in. |
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Post by equivocal on Apr 21, 2024 19:39:16 GMT
And, space hearting in your bathrooms?
As I said, I think there is definitely something in your hybrid idea. As far as designing systems, I'll read with interest.
In my home the heating is very different to what you think of with boilers and radiators. The units blow air at a steady 22 degrees (in our case) all day rather than the standard radiator which heats to 50 degrees then slowly cools as it gives up heat the room, before heating up again. The system then pumps 16 degree air (when needed) all night. I explain this because it means our whole house stays at that fixed temperature. We don't need separate heating in each room so our bathrooms do not need space heaters. I suppose if you wanted to raise them higher than the norm, you could put a normal electric heater in. I only ask because I keep mine (potentially - rad valves) heated summer and winter. This place is old and the bathrooms far larger than needed giving me eye watering energy bills. |
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Post by Zany on Apr 21, 2024 20:07:53 GMT
In my home the heating is very different to what you think of with boilers and radiators. The units blow air at a steady 22 degrees (in our case) all day rather than the standard radiator which heats to 50 degrees then slowly cools as it gives up heat the room, before heating up again. The system then pumps 16 degree air (when needed) all night. I explain this because it means our whole house stays at that fixed temperature. We don't need separate heating in each room so our bathrooms do not need space heaters. I suppose if you wanted to raise them higher than the norm, you could put a normal electric heater in. I only ask because I keep mine (potentially - rad valves) heated summer and winter. This place is old and the bathrooms far larger than needed giving me eye watering energy bills. Its difficult to equate as the methodology is very different. Imagine you lived in a permanent temperate zone where the outside temperature and therefore the inside temperature was permanently 22 degrees. In this new country I have moved your house to, would your bathrooms still be cold? Genuine question. |
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Post by equivocal on Apr 22, 2024 5:49:41 GMT
I only ask because I keep mine (potentially - rad valves) heated summer and winter. This place is old and the bathrooms far larger than needed giving me eye watering energy bills. Its difficult to equate as the methodology is very different. Imagine you lived in a permanent temperate zone where the outside temperature and therefore the inside temperature was permanently 22 degrees. In this new country I have moved your house to, would your bathrooms still be cold? Genuine question. Probably slightly cooler than I keep them. The problem with my bathrooms is poor(ish) insulation, north facing with three external walls. This isn't helped by my habit of leaving the hoppers open. |
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Post by Zany on Apr 22, 2024 6:39:11 GMT
Its difficult to equate as the methodology is very different. Imagine you lived in a permanent temperate zone where the outside temperature and therefore the inside temperature was permanently 22 degrees. In this new country I have moved your house to, would your bathrooms still be cold? Genuine question. Probably slightly cooler than I keep them. The problem with my bathrooms is poor(ish) insulation, north facing with three external walls. This isn't helped by my habit of leaving the hoppers open. We keep our bedroom windows open all night summer and winter. I like fresh air. They are therefore colder than the rest of the house. Heat pumps are brilliant, but not miraculous. My home is very well insulated but I'd guess the difference in a less well insulated home is the same for heat pumps as any other form of heating. That is to say you need more of them to keep a poorly insulated house warm. |
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Post by equivocal on Apr 22, 2024 6:53:10 GMT
Probably slightly cooler than I keep them. The problem with my bathrooms is poor(ish) insulation, north facing with three external walls. This isn't helped by my habit of leaving the hoppers open. We keep our bedroom windows open all night summer and winter. I like fresh air. They are therefore colder than the rest of the house. Heat pumps are brilliant, but not miraculous. My home is very well insulated but I'd guess the difference in a less well insulated home is the same for heat pumps as any other form of heating. That is to say you need more of them to keep a poorly insulated house warm. Yes, and I imagine the tendency towards more open-plan design in modern homes makes them a better fit for your kind of system. |
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