Sir Kier.

The 'red wall' voter were lied to just like all the other voters in this country.

Johnson and his crew of sycophants told people that we would be better off outside of the EU knowing full well that we would not.

That and Corbyn's 'anti-Semitism' were enough to get normally sensible people to vote for him.

Actually, as I have said before majoritarian opinions are not always in the centre. It depends on the issues. On some, majoritarian opinion can be well to the right and on others well to the left. I call myself a democratic socialist but in many ways am more of a social democrat who refuses to see socialism as a dirty word. It is possible to have socialist values without wanting to nationalise everything that moves or attack private enterprise.

I do agree with you that hard core socialism motivated by Marxist ideology is a minority taste, along with far right authoritarianism. But Labour's 2017 manifesto was a very moderate document compared to say 1983 or anything pre-Thatcher. For espousing such proposals I would have been considered a Labour right winger in previous times. And whilst there was a credibility gap over how some of this was to be funded, the policies themselves were liked by large majorities when polled.  The Establishment wanted us to see it as a far left document but it actually wasnt, and policy by policy the people agreed. Labour still lost of course but pretty much wiped out the Tory majority. And it lost in spite of that manifesto and not because of it, for a host of other reasons I have often reiterated. These include the unpopularity of Corbyn himself amongst older tabloid readers, the issue of Brexit which was an albatross around Labour's neck, open party infighting, with the right doing their best to sink their own ship to kill the captain, the wholesale weaponization of the antisemitism issue after several other smear attempts flopped.

In view of what we now know was  coming, had Labour won the 2017 election, it's policy agenda is likely to have been seriously derailed by Covid when it came

I do agree that most of the electorate, whilst they will often have values that cannot be ignored, tend not to be ideological. What used to be the Labour left before it was mostly driven out self-consciously saw themselves as socialist champions of the struggling working classes. It is what most of them believed the party was for. But most of the working class outside the party was anything but ideological and very few would ever describe themselves as socialists or any other kind of ists. There have always been elements of patriotic feelings amongst many of the working classes and other natural Labour supporters, but it is a fine line between acknowledging and reflecting that and openly appealing to hard right elements.

And is Starmer an opportunist or a realist? Probably both, but he is also a man with a track record of lying to win. He lied to all of us in the party by effectively promising the policy agenda of 2017 under a more electable leadership. Some of us knew we were being bullshitted to. You could tell just by the company he kept and by hearing things in the party when you put your ear to the ground. But alas enough were taken in to deliver the party to him. And the rest is history, so to speak.

He is a man who will say and do anything for elected office, few principles he will not ditch, no policy that cannot be dropped or changed. The one thing he will not do is frighten the establishment horses with much that they wont like, which is why many of the popular policies of 2017 had to be abandoned, a wealth tax ruled out, no caps on bankers bonusses, nothing that might trouble Rupert Murdoch. He wants all these onside to smooth his passage to power. I cannot categorically say that the man is entirely unprincipled or uncaring. He comes across as genuine when he speaks of his love of the NHS, for example, which is more than can be said for most Tories. But he has proven himself to be someone willing to play fast and loose with fake promises, who values at least the tacit if not active support of the wealthy elites over the need to transform the lives of the struggling millions, whom I fear will largely be left hanging high and dry.

My own personal experiences in the party for five years which I have detailed in other threads are enough to ensure I will never vote for them again, I know the sort of people who are in charge personally in my neck of the woods. And some of them make Starmer look principled. The feelings run deep in me. Perhaps sometime I will start a new thread to detail what I have seen and heard. There are some morally ugly people in the party. At least in my neck of the woods.

I'm not very happy using the union jack and yes like you said redrum it's a opportunities move.

To me patriotism is a dirty and false word.

I think patriotism is fine it is the nationalists that appear to be the problem.

I don't think it's fine for anyone to die for there country or Flag .


Would anyone on here say Bobby Sands was a patriot .

It's a disgusting nature.

Selling more services not Manufacturerd goods .And we're still in a Massive deficit with the EU.