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Post by Zany on Nov 24, 2024 13:37:17 GMT
Perhaps andrewbrown is a bit more Left wing than I am, I also voted Labour and do not regret it ( so far ), and with the economic and financial / fiscal situation they inherited, they cannot "crack eggs with sticks" just yet, because the resources are not in place - yet. The two primary aims for now seem to be lifting the income going into the Treasury to match the spending going out, and to tinker with expenditure in order to bring it closer to the funds available ( Fixing the deficit ). At the same time go for Growth, growth, growth, which in itself increases income to the Treasury and reduces debt. If the plans work, then instead of the Tory dogma which always focuses on only tax cuts, we will see improved and better public services, fixing the NHS, refurbishing and building more prison space, improving schools and education, pulling local authorities from the edge of bankruptcy and giving communities better public transport. What I think we all want is a glimpse of that vision. An idea how long we have to survive before help arrives. But mainly give people hope and they start spending, the economy stirs and that gives more hope. The economy can spiral up as well as down. |
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Post by Hutchyns on Nov 24, 2024 14:54:09 GMT
Ammonite
We just have to let things take their course. Liz Truss set out her vision and explained that in short it was low taxes and high growth. And even if we leave aside the national and international forces that were determined to stop it even getting out of the starting blocks, it never sat comfortably with the British public from the day it was announced. I think that is underlined by the fact that fairly soon after Liz's demise we elected a Government almost guaranteed to bring us the exact opposite ...i.e high taxation and low growth. Neither do I quibble about the large Labour majority given the percentage of the electorate that supported it; my opinion is that 99% of the large Lib Dem vote total was also cast with the intention of bringing a Starmer Government to power.
We just have to let it play out, and the lessons of economic reality will have to demonstrate themselves over the coming years to the electorate. There's now no short cut to making the journey from 'If the plans work' to providing the inevitable answer ....too late to side step the harsh lesson lined up for us. It'll be an Economics lesson that sufficient numbers of the British public need to live through in order for them to actually grasp it. Only once that has been achieved and experienced will a couple of generations be sufficiently painfully aware not to let another Rachel from Accounts implement another high tax low growth disaster.
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 24, 2024 15:09:57 GMT
Perhaps andrewbrown is a bit more Left wing than I am, I also voted Labour and do not regret it ( so far ), and with the economic and financial / fiscal situation they inherited, they cannot "crack eggs with sticks" just yet, because the resources are not in place - yet. The two primary aims for now seem to be lifting the income going into the Treasury to match the spending going out, and to tinker with expenditure in order to bring it closer to the funds available ( Fixing the deficit ). At the same time go for Growth, growth, growth, which in itself increases income to the Treasury and reduces debt. If the plans work, then instead of the Tory dogma which always focuses on only tax cuts, we will see improved and better public services, fixing the NHS, refurbishing and building more prison space, improving schools and education, pulling local authorities from the edge of bankruptcy and giving communities better public transport. What I think we all want is a glimpse of that vision. An idea how long we have to survive before help arrives. But mainly give people hope and they start spending, the economy stirs and that gives more hope. The economy can spiral up as well as down. Exactly that. Some of that is about policy and some about communication. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 24, 2024 15:28:07 GMT
Perhaps andrewbrown is a bit more Left wing than I am, I also voted Labour and do not regret it ( so far ), and with the economic and financial / fiscal situation they inherited, they cannot "crack eggs with sticks" just yet, because the resources are not in place - yet. I'm not sure it's actually a case of left or right. We want a better outlook for the future. That includes more income for the Treasury. But honesty and vision would help. |
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Post by dappy on Nov 24, 2024 16:09:26 GMT
Everyone wants a better outlook for the future Andrew or at the very least the best possible outlook for the future and within that for the spoils to be shared out as optimally as possible.
We differ on how to achieve that best possible future, perhaps on the extent of that best possible outlook and the best allocation of the spoils from that best possible outlook.
The government has tried to stabilize the economy after the awful inheritance handed over by the last lot. There has been some pain but in my view necessary pain.
The hope is that the more stable economy can encourage investment and growth. Personally I am not sure there is a lot of growth to be had given all the macro factors (ageing population, climate change, Brexit, Covid legacy and global conflict and uncertainty). We will see over the next few years.
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 24, 2024 23:12:42 GMT
Everyone wants a better outlook for the future Andrew or at the very least the best possible outlook for the future and within that for the spoils to be shared out as optimally as possible. We differ on how to achieve that best possible future, perhaps on the extent of that best possible outlook and the best allocation of the spoils from that best possible outlook. The government has tried to stabilize the economy after the awful inheritance handed over by the last lot. There has been some pain but in my view necessary pain. The hope is that the more stable economy can encourage investment and growth. Personally I am not sure there is a lot of growth to be had given all the macro factors (ageing population, climate change, Brexit, Covid legacy and global conflict and uncertainty). We will see over the next few years. Yep, think that sums it up pretty much. I think that limiting the WFA in principle was good, but the level at which they set it was wrong. This generated a lot of bad headlines and bad feeling for ultimately a small amount of money. If they have just targeted the richest, they would have had a lot of support. Politically naive. With the farmers the government are going to need to show that their calculations are correct as there's a huge discrepancy on the impact. I get the need for the NIC increase for employers, given that they boxed themselves in on the manifesto promises, but I worry that this may hit growth. I'm prepared to give them some time to sort things, but I want a vision of where we're going. |
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Post by dappy on Nov 25, 2024 9:25:53 GMT
Realistically Andrew, the only existing measure of means testing they had available to use was the one they adopted. Creation of a new means testing threshhold not currently used or collected would be prohibitively expensive.
Where are we heading. It appears we are heading to a professional government avoiding the empty promises and bluster that we became used to under Johnson. They will seek to improve the lot of ordinary Britons but will not make wild promises they cannot deliver. For once perhaps they will under promise and over deliver.
But I am am afraid how much they can deliver is I suspect limited given the huge headwinds they face which I have listed above. Progress from here will be tough and I suspect limited. If your measure of success for this government is recreation of the benign climate of perhaps twenty years ago, I am afraid I don't think any government has the tools to deliver that and you will be disappointed. Other parties will of course promise those halcyon days if only you elect them next time. I wonder how many will be conned again.
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 25, 2024 18:06:51 GMT
Realistically Andrew, the only existing measure of means testing they had available to use was the one they adopted. Creation of a new means testing threshhold not currently used or collected would be prohibitively expensive. Where are we heading. It appears we are heading to a professional government avoiding the empty promises and bluster that we became used to under Johnson. They will seek to improve the lot of ordinary Britons but will not make wild promises they cannot deliver. For once perhaps they will under promise and over deliver. But I am am afraid how much they can deliver is I suspect limited given the huge headwinds they face which I have listed above. Progress from here will be tough and I suspect limited. If your measure of success for this government is recreation of the benign climate of perhaps twenty years ago, I am afraid I don't think any government has the tools to deliver that and you will be disappointed. Other parties will of course promise those halcyon days if only you elect them next time. I wonder how many will be conned again. Actually disagree with your first paragraph. The links between HMRC and DWP are now in real-time, so in theory they just needs a script, which could be set at any income level they wanted. Issue would be those with fluctuating incomes, depending on what they'd chosen to measure, but this happens much less for pension age than it does working age, as incomes are generally fixed post retirement. |
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Post by Zany on Nov 25, 2024 19:41:06 GMT
Realistically Andrew, the only existing measure of means testing they had available to use was the one they adopted. Creation of a new means testing threshhold not currently used or collected would be prohibitively expensive. Where are we heading. It appears we are heading to a professional government avoiding the empty promises and bluster that we became used to under Johnson. They will seek to improve the lot of ordinary Britons but will not make wild promises they cannot deliver. For once perhaps they will under promise and over deliver. But I am am afraid how much they can deliver is I suspect limited given the huge headwinds they face which I have listed above. Progress from here will be tough and I suspect limited. If your measure of success for this government is recreation of the benign climate of perhaps twenty years ago, I am afraid I don't think any government has the tools to deliver that and you will be disappointed. Other parties will of course promise those halcyon days if only you elect them next time. I wonder how many will be conned again. Telling people your plans is not empty promises. When I go to a board meeting, I can state sales are down, that the business plan is off. That's all good, but the next thing they want is "So what's the plan then" |
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