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Post by Zany on Sept 17, 2024 6:54:45 GMT
I agree with this, in the main. It is very dangerous to prevent people expressing opinions and even more so to ignore the signs given in polls on public opinion.
So if public opinion is saying it wants immigration slowed and wants asylum seekers rejected, it doesn't matter if you don't agree or you see problems with their desires you need to address them.
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Post by dappy on Sept 17, 2024 8:52:50 GMT
There is a lot of different issues raised in the OP. Makes it a little hard to choose which to answer. Non response does not indicate agreement.
In respect of free speech, it is a valuable right but not an absolute one and never has been. Just a couple of random examples to illustrate - Derek Bentley and Jodie Foster in the Accused (admittedly US law). Robinson may well be jailed not to silence him and curtail his free speech but because he flagrantly breached a court order not to repeat what was found to be a lie damaging to another resident and in addition spreading more lies which lead to riots.
In response to Zany’s point , we elect governments to make decisions on our behalf. No one knows majority opinion on immigration or asylum. More significantly perhaps no one is putting the hard positive facts behind either to counter the torrent of insert word of your choice - propaganda? - from the increasingly partisan media. Starved of facts, it’s hard to see how the average Joe Public could possibly form an objective opinion. In truth not sure what the answer is there. I do agree though that it does feel like the Western world - or at least Europe - needs to come up with a plan to address the issue of asylum which frankly is only likely to increase as climate change causes yet more conflict. Don’t think we can do this on our own and honestly have no idea what the realistic answer is.
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Post by equivocal on Sept 17, 2024 11:04:17 GMT
I'm fairly certain he does not have the right to defame, to interfere with court proceedings or incite violent confrontation From my perspective, I see little difference in giving him a free pass on any subject from doing the same for, say, Anjem Choudary - on the grounds of freedom of expression.
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Post by Saint on Sept 17, 2024 11:12:02 GMT
I'm fairly certain he does not have the right to defame, to interfere with court proceedings or incite violent confrontation From my perspective, I see little difference in giving him a free pass on any subject from doing the same for, say, Anjem Choudary - on the grounds of freedom of expression. This is a good point. I'd be interested to hear whether Wapentake thinks that Anjem Choudary should have been given a pass on free speech grounds. Is he opposed to his incarceration on the grounds that he too may become a martyr? |
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Sept 17, 2024 12:13:18 GMT
I'm fairly certain he does not have the right to defame, to interfere with court proceedings or incite violent confrontation From my perspective, I see little difference in giving him a free pass on any subject from doing the same for, say, Anjem Choudary - on the grounds of freedom of expression. This is a good point. . . Seconded |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2024 18:39:04 GMT
Searching stuff re Lucy Letby led me to what is imo an excellent piece by Kathleen Stocks that then led me here which I might well join under the old duffers section costs less than £30 link |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2024 18:46:42 GMT
There is a lot to read on the FSU site here is one link |
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Post by montegriffo on Sept 17, 2024 18:48:59 GMT
I'm fairly certain he does not have the right to defame, to interfere with court proceedings or incite violent confrontation From my perspective, I see little difference in giving him a free pass on any subject from doing the same for, say, Anjem Choudary - on the grounds of freedom of expression. This is a good point. I'd be interested to hear whether Wapentake thinks that Anjem Choudary should have been given a pass on free speech grounds. Is he opposed to his incarceration on the grounds that he too may become a martyr? Remember when certain Imams were referred to as 'hate preachers' by many of the same people who now campaign for Tommy Robinson (not his real name) to be allowed to incite racial hatred? |
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Post by Zany on Sept 17, 2024 19:02:15 GMT
Imagine this scenario.
Your family want to leave the Yorkshire Dales and move to Leeds, for five years now every time it comes up they say the same things.
They say they like the city because people live closer so they’d have more friends, its quicker to get to the shops and there’s more choice.
You’ve tried to educate them, pointed out the beautiful misty sunrises you see from your bedroom window. Told them it’s not quicker in the city as although things are closer there is slower traffic and the people aren’t friends just because they live closer.
How long do you persist in being right before you do what your family want and move?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2024 19:05:28 GMT
I'm fairly certain he does not have the right to defame, to interfere with court proceedings or incite violent confrontation From my perspective, I see little difference in giving him a free pass on any subject from doing the same for, say, Anjem Choudary - on the grounds of freedom of expression. This is a good point. I'd be interested to hear whether Wapentake thinks that Anjem Choudary should have been given a pass on free speech grounds. Is he opposed to his incarceration on the grounds that he too may become a martyr? He Choudary was free to speak for a long time before being hauled into court. To be clear I think Yaxley Lennon is a **** who exploits issues for political and monetary gain. Having said that we need to protect freedom of expression whether it be from left right,religious views or most other viewpoints. I have spoken about this elsewhere,when I was a young man (a long time ago) many adopted the stance of I will oppose your views with every bone in my body and similarly will defend your right to express them with the same vigour.Interestingly or maybe not as that young man I was travelling long distance on a train when I was subject to a barrage of abuse from some NF Herbert’s,I look Jewish though I’m not and fortunately for methe train guard was around and got me foc in to first class away from said Herbert’s. Despite all that was still inclined to that in bold. |
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Post by Saint on Sept 17, 2024 19:10:56 GMT
This is a good point. I'd be interested to hear whether Wapentake thinks that Anjem Choudary should have been given a pass on free speech grounds. Is he opposed to his incarceration on the grounds that he too may become a martyr? He Choudary was free to speak for a long time before being hauled into court. To be clear I think Yaxley Lennon is a **** who exploits issues for political and monetary gain. Having said that we need to protect freedom of expression whether it be from left right,religious views or most other viewpoints. I have spoken about this elsewhere,when I was a young man (a long time ago) many adopted the stance of I will oppose your views with every bone in my body and similarly will defend your right to express them with the same vigour.Interestingly or maybe not as that young man I was travelling long distance on a train when I was subject to a barrage of abuse from some NF Herbert’s,I look Jewish though I’m not and fortunately for methe train guard was around and got me foc in to first class away from said Herbert’s. Despite all that was still inclined to that in bold. Yes. Who was it who said that I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it? Voltaire or one of those French chappies, I think. I don't know for sure, of course, but I don't imagine that he meant that he would defend to the death everybody's right to tell lies. I'm pretty sure he meant that everyone was entitled to express a view about actually existing facts, not make up bullshit at will. Who would die for somebody's right to do that? |
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Post by Zany on Sept 17, 2024 19:12:16 GMT
This is a good point. I'd be interested to hear whether Wapentake thinks that Anjem Choudary should have been given a pass on free speech grounds. Is he opposed to his incarceration on the grounds that he too may become a martyr? Remember when certain Imams were referred to as 'hate preachers' by many of the same people who now campaign for Tommy Robinson (not his real name) to be allowed to incite racial hatred? And there's the rub. People are inconsistent, but does that mean we should ignore their views? |
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Post by montegriffo on Sept 17, 2024 19:15:22 GMT
This is a good point. I'd be interested to hear whether Wapentake thinks that Anjem Choudary should have been given a pass on free speech grounds. Is he opposed to his incarceration on the grounds that he too may become a martyr? He Choudary was free to speak for a long time before being hauled into court. To be clear I think Yaxley Lennon is a **** who exploits issues for political and monetary gain. Having said that we need to protect freedom of expression whether it be from left right,religious views or most other viewpoints. I have spoken about this elsewhere,when I was a young man (a long time ago) many adopted the stance of I will oppose your views with every bone in my body and similarly will defend your right to express them with the same vigour.Interestingly or maybe not as that young man I was travelling long distance on a train when I was subject to a barrage of abuse from some NF Herbert’s,I look Jewish though I’m not and fortunately for methe train guard was around and got me foc in to first class away from said Herbert’s. Despite all that was still inclined to that in bold. What if someone's view is ''gas the Jews''? You going to defend his right to express that? |
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Post by Zany on Sept 17, 2024 19:25:35 GMT
He Choudary was free to speak for a long time before being hauled into court. To be clear I think Yaxley Lennon is a **** who exploits issues for political and monetary gain. Having said that we need to protect freedom of expression whether it be from left right,religious views or most other viewpoints. I have spoken about this elsewhere,when I was a young man (a long time ago) many adopted the stance of I will oppose your views with every bone in my body and similarly will defend your right to express them with the same vigour.Interestingly or maybe not as that young man I was travelling long distance on a train when I was subject to a barrage of abuse from some NF Herbert’s,I look Jewish though I’m not and fortunately for methe train guard was around and got me foc in to first class away from said Herbert’s. Despite all that was still inclined to that in bold. What if someone's view is ''gas the Jews''? You going to defend his right to express that? No one is ever going to say that's OK because the history is too real. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2024 19:39:53 GMT
He Choudary was free to speak for a long time before being hauled into court. To be clear I think Yaxley Lennon is a **** who exploits issues for political and monetary gain. Having said that we need to protect freedom of expression whether it be from left right,religious views or most other viewpoints. I have spoken about this elsewhere,when I was a young man (a long time ago) many adopted the stance of I will oppose your views with every bone in my body and similarly will defend your right to express them with the same vigour.Interestingly or maybe not as that young man I was travelling long distance on a train when I was subject to a barrage of abuse from some NF Herbert’s,I look Jewish though I’m not and fortunately for methe train guard was around and got me foc in to first class away from said Herbert’s. Despite all that was still inclined to that in bold. What if someone's view is ''gas the Jews''? You going to defend his right to express that? Oppose that view completely,if somebody thinks that and clearly some do as some Jews would see Palestinians as nothing more than sub human. I think that’s a rather simplistic question put,clearly the human race harbours some sick or outrageous views across many different nationalities and cultures. I am interested if following the riots statements made by Starmer even the speaker does anybody here find warnings made alarming ? I know of one long term poster (not on here) a civilised and well rounded human being who has binned all their social media even contemplate leaving all forums. We have been told be careful what you say online you are being watched and could find yourself in court,is anybody worried about that? |
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