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Post by AvonCalling on Oct 16, 2024 15:07:18 GMT
I don't think there's a single concept in this whole thread that I've understood. May as well be in Greek. That's not an accident. It has taken years of careful and tedious work to turn economics into an area of the occult I've an A Level in economics and can't follow it. That said i got it when Dinosaurs were still roaming the earth. |
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Post by brownlow on Oct 16, 2024 15:08:11 GMT
I'd say it is very controversial, since it's so at odds with what the public is led to believe - for example, the basis on which austerity was sold to them. Draining excess reserves and running out of money are completely different things. It'd be hard to justify 335,000 excess deaths, and a decade+ of lost growth on the need to drain reserves from the banking system (if ppl even knew what that meant). Especially when that procedure was already redundant. The implications of the actual spending and revenue mechanisms are profound. Far from 'borrowing' private savings, govt deficit spending is the only source (absent a trade surplus) of net private sector savings. Tax payers' money isn't really a thing. All transactions, tax liabilities and bond purchases are ultimately settled with central bank reserve transfers or deletions, and central bank reserves are only created ex nihilo by prior or current net govt spending. As sectoral balances show, absent a trade surplus, tax payers couldn't ultimately fund govt spending with bank credit.
"The power of the money markets" is an artefact of govt's own rule, and nothing to do with obtaining money. Excess reserve liquidity arises for the same reason govt cannot run out of it its own currency.
If someone has to be in debt - and someone does have to be in debt - should it be an immortal entity which issues its own currency and can roll over its debts in perpetuity, or households and firms, which cannot?
I do agree that implementing some other system, especially unilaterally, would be difficult, perhaps prohibitively so. Dunno, Japan's been doing yield curve control for 30 years.
I think you misunderstand me. The it was considering gilts as only a safe store of money. The paper points out that gilts may be viewed in that way because we were carrying an excess of central bank reserves.
Well, govt bonds provide "safe assets and a reliable source of collateral to the non-bank private sector" whether or not there are excess reserves in the banking system. Only banks are allowed to have central bank reserve accounts and hold reserves.
Under the 'corridor' (scarce reserves/pre-QE) system of interest rate setting, bond sales also served as a means of draining excess reserves, i.e. reserves created in the process of deficit spending. That is the purpose of the 'full funding rule'. Under the 'floor' (excess reserves/post-QE) system, that is redundant. In neither case is bond issuance a means of providing a fiat currency issuing govt with spending money.
Much to agree with. I'd just say the UCL study describes the existing system, not a hypothetical alternative (or something which only applies under excess reserve liquidity).
There are some "MMT" types on social media who infer that, since the 'full funding rule' is govt's own self-imposed rule, it doesn't matter and govts can just ignore it. They can't without reforming the entire banking and monetary system, renegotiating a load of trade deals (they can't do it unilaterally), and resisting aggressive lobbying from the banks. That "perspective" probably isn't "helpful".
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Post by brownlow on Oct 16, 2024 15:19:43 GMT
I don't think there's a single concept in this whole thread that I've understood. May as well be in Greek. Neither do most MPs and journalists (research has found, not just my opinion). It is a Byzantine ball of obfuscation and misleading language - and not by accident. "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand the banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." - Henry Ford.
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Post by montegriffo on Oct 16, 2024 15:46:27 GMT
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Post by Orac on Oct 16, 2024 15:55:46 GMT
I don't think there's a single concept in this whole thread that I've understood. May as well be in Greek. Neither do most MPs and journalists (research has found, not just my opinion). It is a Byzantine ball of obfuscation and misleading language - and not by accident. "It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand the banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." - Henry Ford.
If a theory can make predictions that are both line with reality and couldn't be made without the model, then its It's a good sign that it has the needed amount of objects and complication. Modern economics tends t treat this notion as optional though |
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Post by Zany on Oct 16, 2024 20:13:07 GMT
Over the last few years I have found my world shrinking down to my immediate universe. Just me, my company, my staff.
The country seems bereft and rudderless, with each of us trying to survive the sinking ship by our own devices.
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Post by Orac on Oct 17, 2024 9:27:10 GMT
Over the last few years I have found my world shrinking down to my immediate universe. Just me, my company, my staff. The country seems bereft and rudderless, with each of us trying to survive the sinking ship by our own devices. My overly presumptive take - Your subconscious is noticing that former bonds are no longer there (perhaps bonds is not the right word) Imagine you are on a life raft with thirty survivors - 5 of whom are friends. You may only know and talk to your friends, but your brain holds a picture of everyone else.(a feeling if you will). There is certain amount you can be pretty sure of about them regardless of the fact that you don't know them. They are fellow survivors who were passengers on that boat, and so they are going to feel a bit like you about the situation. They may not throw themselves to the sharks to save you, but they are basically 'onside' and will recognise you similarly.. They will likely go into some-kind of reciprocal communion with you if it is needed - ie rationing, watching out while you sleep.There may be one or two people on the boat who don't feel like this, but you know that in those cases, the collective will have your back , not theirs Now imagine you are in a similar situation, but as you cast your eye about the other survivors on the raft, you notice that 10 of them appear to be tattooed pirates, 5 of them are dressed like Marilyn Manson and seem to be enjoying the experience, and another five appear to be escapees from a mental asylum - and none of these people speak English. As hard as you tell yourself that you shouldn't come to conclusions based on mere appearance, your brain disagrees. You are now in a different world with different rules and your brain knows that. This is just the tip of the iceberg (pardon the pun) There is a huge section of a human's mental world that is non verbal picture .. It is the emotional picture a person has of the world / people outside their immediate perception. It is possible to notice this 'thing' but in normal mental processing it is only semi conscious (at most). If it is noticed as a distinct object, the person noticing is probably having an internal crisis of some kind. The picture comes from your family, your upbringing, your schooling and the impressions you receive from others - it is not something you have much (if any) conscious control over, but It forms a background colour to all your thinking. A society will work if people are confident that their background picture lines up roughly with that of others. My view is that this has been taken off us and as a result we are splitting into to different worlds (different background pictures)  I told you i was being presumptive. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 17, 2024 9:55:27 GMT
I might start a new thread in mind zone about this
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Post by Zany on Oct 17, 2024 19:20:36 GMT
Over the last few years I have found my world shrinking down to my immediate universe. Just me, my company, my staff. The country seems bereft and rudderless, with each of us trying to survive the sinking ship by our own devices. My overly presumptive take - Your subconscious is noticing that former bonds are no longer there (perhaps bonds is not the right word) Imagine you are on a life raft with thirty survivors - 5 of whom are friends. You may only know and talk to your friends, but your brain holds a picture of everyone else.(a feeling if you will). There is certain amount you can be pretty sure of about them regardless of the fact that you don't know them. They are fellow survivors who were passengers on that boat, and so they are going to feel a bit like you about the situation. They may not throw themselves to the sharks to save you, but they are basically 'onside' and will recognise you similarly.. They will likely go into some-kind of reciprocal communion with you if it is needed - ie rationing, watching out while you sleep.There may be one or two people on the boat who don't feel like this, but you know that in those cases, the collective will have your back , not theirs Now imagine you are in a similar situation, but as you cast your eye about the other survivors on the raft, you notice that 10 of them appear to be tattooed pirates, 5 of them are dressed like Marilyn Manson and seem to be enjoying the experience, and another five appear to be escapees from a mental asylum - and none of these people speak English. As hard as you tell yourself that you shouldn't come to conclusions based on mere appearance, your brain disagrees. You are now in a different world with different rules and your brain knows that. This is just the tip of the iceberg (pardon the pun) There is a huge section of a human's mental world that is non verbal picture .. It is the emotional picture a person has of the world / people outside their immediate perception. It is possible to notice this 'thing' but in normal mental processing it is only semi conscious (at most). If it is noticed as a distinct object, the person noticing is probably having an internal crisis of some kind. The picture comes from your family, your upbringing, your schooling and the impressions you receive from others - it is not something you have much (if any) conscious control over, but It forms a background colour to all your thinking. A society will work if people are confident that their background picture lines up roughly with that of others. My view is that this has been taken off us and as a result we are splitting into to different worlds (different background pictures) I told you i was being presumptive. I would call it looking in a mirror at yourself. For myself its more about an ever decreasing ability to spare time for others. Pressure on top of pressure reducing my ability to care about the world. Its been a really shit time for a very long time and I think I'm finally exhausted. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Oct 17, 2024 20:52:20 GMT
I would call it looking in a mirror at yourself. For myself its more about an ever decreasing ability to spare time for others. Pressure on top of pressure reducing my ability to care about the world. Its been a really shit time for a very long time and I think I'm finally exhausted. That's sad to read, hope you get through it soon. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Oct 17, 2024 20:55:49 GMT
Over the last few years I have found my world shrinking down to my immediate universe. Just me, my company, my staff. The country seems bereft and rudderless, with each of us trying to survive the sinking ship by our own devices. My overly presumptive take - Your subconscious is noticing that former bonds are no longer there (perhaps bonds is not the right word) Imagine you are on a life raft with thirty survivors - 5 of whom are friends. You may only know and talk to your friends, but your brain holds a picture of everyone else.(a feeling if you will). There is certain amount you can be pretty sure of about them regardless of the fact that you don't know them. They are fellow survivors who were passengers on that boat, and so they are going to feel a bit like you about the situation. They may not throw themselves to the sharks to save you, but they are basically 'onside' and will recognise you similarly.. They will likely go into some-kind of reciprocal communion with you if it is needed - ie rationing, watching out while you sleep.There may be one or two people on the boat who don't feel like this, but you know that in those cases, the collective will have your back , not theirs Now imagine you are in a similar situation, but as you cast your eye about the other survivors on the raft, you notice that 10 of them appear to be tattooed pirates, 5 of them are dressed like Marilyn Manson and seem to be enjoying the experience, and another five appear to be escapees from a mental asylum - and none of these people speak English. As hard as you tell yourself that you shouldn't come to conclusions based on mere appearance, your brain disagrees. You are now in a different world with different rules and your brain knows that. This is just the tip of the iceberg (pardon the pun) There is a huge section of a human's mental world that is non verbal picture .. It is the emotional picture a person has of the world / people outside their immediate perception. It is possible to notice this 'thing' but in normal mental processing it is only semi conscious (at most). If it is noticed as a distinct object, the person noticing is probably having an internal crisis of some kind. The picture comes from your family, your upbringing, your schooling and the impressions you receive from others - it is not something you have much (if any) conscious control over, but It forms a background colour to all your thinking. A society will work if people are confident that their background picture lines up roughly with that of others. My view is that this has been taken off us and as a result we are splitting into to different worlds (different background pictures) I told you i was being presumptive. What you are describing is that a lot of how we as humans respond to situations is driven by relatively simple association links. But what makes us different to animals is that most of us rise above that and do better. |
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Post by Zany on Oct 17, 2024 21:04:13 GMT
I would call it looking in a mirror at yourself. For myself its more about an ever decreasing ability to spare time for others. Pressure on top of pressure reducing my ability to care about the world. Its been a really shit time for a very long time and I think I'm finally exhausted. That's sad to read, hope you get through it soon. Thanks Steve. I keep getting back up and getting knocked down again. I always thought I was indestructible but I seem to have run out of steam. Trouble is 137 people are leaning on me to make their lives safe. Not to mention my family. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Oct 17, 2024 22:09:57 GMT
You'll get through it
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Post by Zany on Oct 18, 2024 6:17:03 GMT
Thanks I know. In any case you can't have the exciting life without the worrying one. I've taken risks did big expansions stretched the money and often struck gold. Nice business well established and doing well. No one saw Covid coming and this shit afterwards. Sometimes its just nice to say it out loud, I can't at home and certainly staff need constant reassurance that their quiet work places will pick up again. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 18, 2024 7:42:00 GMT
My overly presumptive take - Your subconscious is noticing that former bonds are no longer there (perhaps bonds is not the right word) Imagine you are on a life raft with thirty survivors - 5 of whom are friends. You may only know and talk to your friends, but your brain holds a picture of everyone else.(a feeling if you will). There is certain amount you can be pretty sure of about them regardless of the fact that you don't know them. They are fellow survivors who were passengers on that boat, and so they are going to feel a bit like you about the situation. They may not throw themselves to the sharks to save you, but they are basically 'onside' and will recognise you similarly.. They will likely go into some-kind of reciprocal communion with you if it is needed - ie rationing, watching out while you sleep.There may be one or two people on the boat who don't feel like this, but you know that in those cases, the collective will have your back , not theirs Now imagine you are in a similar situation, but as you cast your eye about the other survivors on the raft, you notice that 10 of them appear to be tattooed pirates, 5 of them are dressed like Marilyn Manson and seem to be enjoying the experience, and another five appear to be escapees from a mental asylum - and none of these people speak English. As hard as you tell yourself that you shouldn't come to conclusions based on mere appearance, your brain disagrees. You are now in a different world with different rules and your brain knows that. This is just the tip of the iceberg (pardon the pun) There is a huge section of a human's mental world that is non verbal picture .. It is the emotional picture a person has of the world / people outside their immediate perception. It is possible to notice this 'thing' but in normal mental processing it is only semi conscious (at most). If it is noticed as a distinct object, the person noticing is probably having an internal crisis of some kind. The picture comes from your family, your upbringing, your schooling and the impressions you receive from others - it is not something you have much (if any) conscious control over, but It forms a background colour to all your thinking. A society will work if people are confident that their background picture lines up roughly with that of others. My view is that this has been taken off us and as a result we are splitting into to different worlds (different background pictures) I told you i was being presumptive. I would call it looking in a mirror at yourself. For myself its more about an ever decreasing ability to spare time for others. Pressure on top of pressure reducing my ability to care about the world. Its been a really shit time for a very long time and I think I'm finally exhausted. I hope things get simpler for you soon. You don't feel that we are splitting into tribes with different pictures (watching different movies is a better analogy)? Let me give you an example that's right in front of us - we had one forum and now we have two. |
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I told you i was being presumptive.