Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 1, 2024 12:56:55 GMT
Only 7 years since that horrible night when 72 people died A good, unusually blunt read on how it came to pass www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62305qx946o 'How safety was regarded as, at best, not as a vote-winner; and at worst as an obstruction to the economy. How regulation was viewed as guidance to be bent. An inherent lack of curiosity - a presumption that someone else would check, that something that bad couldn’t happen here.
More than 3,000 high- and mid-rise buildings across England are still being monitored because they have unsafe cladding.
The recommendations made next week will attempt to ensure such a disaster can never happen again.
As always the government will have no obligation to carry these out. Nor is there a formal process to monitor what they reject or why.
It is another opportunity for change. One we may yet reflect on after future fires.'Call me vindictive but unless we see people jailed over this then something like it will happen again |
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Post by dappy on Sept 1, 2024 13:22:44 GMT
You have a grossly overstated impression of the impact of jailing people on the behaviour of unrelated people Steve.
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 14:04:36 GMT
Only 7 years since that horrible night when 72 people died A good, unusually blunt read on how it came to pass www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62305qx946o 'How safety was regarded as, at best, not as a vote-winner; and at worst as an obstruction to the economy. How regulation was viewed as guidance to be bent. An inherent lack of curiosity - a presumption that someone else would check, that something that bad couldn’t happen here.
More than 3,000 high- and mid-rise buildings across England are still being monitored because they have unsafe cladding.
The recommendations made next week will attempt to ensure such a disaster can never happen again.
As always the government will have no obligation to carry these out. Nor is there a formal process to monitor what they reject or why.
It is another opportunity for change. One we may yet reflect on after future fires.'Call me vindictive but unless we see people jailed over this then something like it will happen again I still think the main cause of deaths in Grenfell was to poor direction from the attending fire officer. Who refused to change the escape plan even when it was blindingly obvious the flames were breaching the floors and engulfing the building. That the cladding provided a breach between those floors that was supposedly impossible is terrible, but not as bad as watching it happen and refusing to react for fear of catching some blame. Very emotive piece by the BBC, with sentences such as "t was this refurbishment that would cover the tower’s external walls with combustible materials and lead to the catastrophic fire that killed 72 people in 2017." My understanding is that the cladding did meet class 0 standard in its testing. It was the intense heat generated by the bellows/chimney effect of air rushing up the gap between the cladding and the building that caused it to catch fire. Had the fire break been extended on the outside of the building between each floor the cladding would not have burnt. (I'll wait on the report for confirmation of this.) I wonder how many other clad buildings could be made safe by simply adding this external fire break and changing the evacuation protocols. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 1, 2024 16:37:03 GMT
Why blame the rescuers for not being able to reverse years of incompetence, greed and downright misconduct by those in authority?
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 1, 2024 16:40:36 GMT
You have a grossly overstated impression of the impact of jailing people on the behaviour of unrelated people Steve. I tell you what I do know - it works When I had people at work try to overule my decisions on design safety, reminding them that the legal advice we had was they were leaving themselves open to be jailed for manslaughter was very effective at shutting their gobs. Now tell us your experience of not jailing people leading to an end to all crime. |
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 18:25:12 GMT
Why blame the rescuers for not being able to reverse years of incompetence, greed and downright misconduct by those in authority? I blame the person I think bears responsibility. That's generally how it works. It may well be the train companies fault that the barriers aren't working. But IMO its still the police officers fault for waving the cars through in front of the train. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 1, 2024 18:37:57 GMT
So you agree with me that you blame most those that took reckless action with not enough regard for life. And in the case of Grenfell those that did it for profit.
Please say if you need it explained why Arconic falsely saying a cassette that doesn't meet the fire standard supposedly does in order to make more profit is somehow mostly the fault of the fire service.
Similar for the builders Rydon tearing up the architect's design using fire resistant material and using fire spreading cassettes instead without doing tests or proper checks again in order for profit is somehow mostly the fault of the fire service.
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 18:41:35 GMT
So you agree with me that you blame most those that took reckless action with not enough regard for life. And in the case of Grenfell those that did it for profit. Please say if you need it explained why Arconic falsely saying a cassette that doesn't meet the fire standard supposedly does in order to make more profit is somehow mostly the fault of the fire service. Similar for the builders Rydon tearing up the architect's design using fire resistant material and using fire spreading cassettes instead without doing tests or proper checks again in order for profit is somehow mostly the fault of the fire service. I've made my point clear enough. I'll await the report before I comment on the build. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Sept 1, 2024 19:48:57 GMT
I expect to see no clear pointing of who takes the blame. But unless they can show illegality in the chain of contracting then the buck should have to stop with them. As it happens though there does seem to be evidence of such illegality. And if you do an illegal act when you know safety is involved and people die then manslaughter can come into play.
Anyway lets see what the report says.
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 20:02:01 GMT
I expect to see no clear pointing of who takes the blame. But unless they can show illegality in the chain of contracting then the buck should have to stop with them. As it happens though there does seem to be evidence of such illegality. And if you do an illegal act when you know safety is involved and people die then manslaughter can come into play. Anyway lets see what the report says. I do remember Celotex saying their insulation passes Class 0 when used as proscribed. At the time of writing there is no fireproof PIR insulation available on the market. However Celotex is fire resistant which means the material slows the spread of fire. Specifically designed to resist high temperatures with a Euroclass 'F' reaction to fire classification. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 1, 2024 20:17:49 GMT
I expect to see no clear pointing of who takes the blame. But unless they can show illegality in the chain of contracting then the buck should have to stop with them. As it happens though there does seem to be evidence of such illegality. And if you do an illegal act when you know safety is involved and people die then manslaughter can come into play. Anyway lets see what the report says. I do remember Celotex saying their insulation passes Class 0 when used as proscribed. At the time of writing there is no fireproof PIR insulation available on the market. However Celotex is fire resistant which means the material slows the spread of fire. Specifically designed to resist high temperatures with a Euroclass 'F' reaction to fire classification.
Deborah Berger, a product manager at Celotex, told the Grenfell public inquiry that almost three years before the 2017 disaster, colleagues alerted her that a safety test had been rigged with fire-retardant panels to boost the insulation’s fire performance, but the modifications were left out of marketing literature used by architects and specifiers.'www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/26/celotex-executive-wrote-wtf-on-fire-test-report-grenfell-inquiry-hears |
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Post by Zany on Sept 1, 2024 20:54:40 GMT
I do remember Celotex saying their insulation passes Class 0 when used as proscribed. At the time of writing there is no fireproof PIR insulation available on the market. However Celotex is fire resistant which means the material slows the spread of fire. Specifically designed to resist high temperatures with a Euroclass 'F' reaction to fire classification.
Deborah Berger, a product manager at Celotex, told the Grenfell public inquiry that almost three years before the 2017 disaster, colleagues alerted her that a safety test had been rigged with fire-retardant panels to boost the insulation’s fire performance, but the modifications were left out of marketing literature used by architects and specifiers.'www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/nov/26/celotex-executive-wrote-wtf-on-fire-test-report-grenfell-inquiry-hearsWow didn't know that Steve. Changes everything. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 3, 2024 22:49:29 GMT
Seems I'm not alone  |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,633
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Post by Steve on Sept 4, 2024 16:00:24 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2024 20:45:04 GMT
You have a grossly overstated impression of the impact of jailing people on the behaviour of unrelated people Steve. Indeed. But there is the simple matter of justice. And the fact that we have a grossly understated assessment of the culture of immunity that not jailing people encourages. If more people in high places were held to account in a court of law more generally for their wrongdoings, it might at least make some of those tempted to copy them think twice |
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