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Post by dappy on Aug 22, 2024 15:39:44 GMT
I would appear that all escape routes now exhausted, you simply have no idea who would be eligible for your new state benefit and at what level it would be set.
Fairly basic questions I would have thought.
You seem to have thought briefly about how your benefit would be distributed (and frankly come up with a silly scheme) without thinking about who gets it and how much.
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Post by dappy on Aug 22, 2024 15:43:14 GMT
Aren't we pretty much all agreed that handing out WFA to wealthy pensioners is silly. So therefore we are all in favour of removing WFA for wealth pensioners. So "all" we have to agree on is "What is our definition of a wealthy pensioner" What are pension credits and why do we have them. I have tried to understand this and visited various pension websites and find it very confusing and whilst I am not the smartest person int he world I am not dumb. This is one of the reasons I objected to Steve calling people stupid in respect of pensions...because they keep being chnaged and the rules can;t be straight forward if I can ask people who are smart how it works and they can't figure it out or answer it either. As I understand pension credits, it is a safety net system to ensure that all people of pensionable age have a basic level of money to live on. The rate is marginally below state pension level and is there for those people who for whatever reason are not entitled to a state pension and do not have private income or assets to live off. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2024 15:43:19 GMT
Aren't we pretty much all agreed that handing out WFA to wealthy pensioners is silly. So therefore we are all in favour of removing WFA for wealth pensioners. So "all" we have to agree on is "What is our definition of a wealthy pensioner" What are pension credits and why do we have them. I have tried to understand this and visited various pension websites and find it very confusing and whilst I am not the smartest person int he world I am not dumb. This is one of the reasons I objected to Steve calling people stupid in respect of pensions...because they keep being chnaged and the rules can;t be straight forward if I can ask people who are smart how it works and they can't figure it out or answer it either. I just think if they help the 2 million identified by Age UK and other OAP and disabled people's organisations, then those who fell through the cracks would be well looked after. If people were against the Tories abandoning them why would they be for abandoning them under Labour? Doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what the best solution is, it requires dedicated research and like you said the whole system is really very complex. My initial feeling was that if people are going to "warm banks" to keep warm, then maybe help can be offered there so they can keep the meters running at home, but apparently this is a very silly idea. I thought with all the targeting tools they've got for people nowdays it would be relatively easy to identify key constituencies who are most in need very cheaply and with low admin cost anyway? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2024 15:44:54 GMT
I would appear that all escape routes now exhausted, you simply have no idea who would be eligible for your new state benefit and at what level it would be set. Fairly basic questions I would have thought. You seem to have thought briefly about how your benefit would be distributed (and frankly come up with a silly scheme) without thinking about who gets it and how much. This is also flat out lying about what I've wrote and said, no "escape" is needed because I'm offering suggestions which I have already defended. You are simply flat out lying about what people have said, done and what arguments they are making. There's no point offering a rebuttal because you will just lie about that too |
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Post by dappy on Aug 22, 2024 15:50:13 GMT
So I ask again. WhT would be the eligibility criteria for your new state benefit and how much would it be.
I am assuming it would be payable to people who just miss out on pension credit eligibility but up to how far in excess of pension credit eligibility would it be payable.
As WFA is quite low in amount (£4 per week equivalent for under 80s and £6 for over 80s, I assume you would leave the rate unchanged for whoever these newly eligible people are??
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2024 15:54:54 GMT
So I ask again. WhT would be the eligibility criteria for your new state benefit and how much would it be. I am assuming it would be payable to people who just miss out on pension credit eligibility but up to how far in excess of pension credit eligibility would it be payable. As WFA is quite low in amount (£4 per week equivalent for under 80s and £6 for over 80s, I assume you would leave the rate unchanged for whoever these newly eligible people are?? Who said there would be a new state benefit? When you start off making up stuff, it becomes a tangled web you weave Do you see now why I'm bored of responding to you? Why don't you just start out by asking a simple question without assumptions "what would you do?" or something like that, then you might get better responses? |
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Post by dappy on Aug 22, 2024 16:05:41 GMT
You as I understood you wanted a different benefit for those people who you see as disadvantaged by the loss of WFA. You are going to distribute this benefit by vouchers at community hubs.
What do you propose to be the eligibility criteria for this benefit?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2024 16:11:31 GMT
You as I understood you wanted a different benefit for those people who you see as disadvantaged by the loss of WFA. You are going to distribute this benefit by vouchers at community hubs. What do you propose to be the eligibility criteria for this benefit? No I don't want a different benefit for anyone, why do you keep making more and more nonsense up and trying to pass it off as my position? It's getting really old. I would just stop doing it at this point Do you realize vouchers handed out to people aren't considered a benefit of any kind when it comes to stuff like fuel vouchers and vouchers for food banks for example? There is a simple eligibility test often passed at places like CAB or places where their means are already known to staff, they give the vouchers to people and then they can spend them. Didn't I even give you a link earlier? If so, what exactly is your problem with stocking up on fuel vouchers at places like warm banks, CAB and other similar places old people would frequent where their means are likely known for them to be distributed? It might not entirely solve the problem by itself, but it will certainly help and that's what we want to do - help people What would you prefer? Old people simply freeze to death in winter? If it makes me dumb for trying to think of ways to prevent that, then I think I can live with that |
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 22, 2024 16:12:15 GMT
So I ask again. WhT would be the eligibility criteria for your new state benefit and how much would it be. I am assuming it would be payable to people who just miss out on pension credit eligibility but up to how far in excess of pension credit eligibility would it be payable. As WFA is quite low in amount (£4 per week equivalent for under 80s and £6 for over 80s, I assume you would leave the rate unchanged for whoever these newly eligible people are?? Who said there would be a new state benefit? When you start off making up stuff, it becomes a tangled web you weave Do you see now why I'm bored of responding to you? Why don't you just start out by asking a simple question without assumptions "what would you do?" or something like that, then you might get better responses? I don;t think he is trying to misrepresent you. I think he is trying to get a firm grip on what you are suggesting. Forums are never a great medium for complex issues where we all come at the issue with our own preconceptions and possibly even misunderstandings. |
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 22, 2024 16:14:24 GMT
Aren't we pretty much all agreed that handing out WFA to wealthy pensioners is silly. So therefore we are all in favour of removing WFA for wealth pensioners. So "all" we have to agree on is "What is our definition of a wealthy pensioner" What are pension credits and why do we have them. I have tried to understand this and visited various pension websites and find it very confusing and whilst I am not the smartest person int he world I am not dumb. This is one of the reasons I objected to Steve calling people stupid in respect of pensions...because they keep being chnaged and the rules can;t be straight forward if I can ask people who are smart how it works and they can't figure it out or answer it either. I just think if they help the 2 million identified by Age UK and other OAP and disabled people's organisations, then those who fell through the cracks would be well looked after. If people were against the Tories abandoning them why would they be for abandoning them under Labour? Doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what the best solution is, it requires dedicated research and like you said the whole system is really very complex. My initial feeling was that if people are going to "warm banks" to keep warm, then maybe help can be offered there so they can keep the meters running at home, but apparently this is a very silly idea. I thought with all the targeting tools they've got for people nowdays it would be relatively easy to identify key constituencies who are most in need very cheaply and with low admin cost anyway? Are you saying that you think pension credits are a top up for people who may not have paid enough NI or is that not it? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2024 16:16:50 GMT
I just think if they help the 2 million identified by Age UK and other OAP and disabled people's organisations, then those who fell through the cracks would be well looked after. If people were against the Tories abandoning them why would they be for abandoning them under Labour? Doesn't make sense. I'm not sure what the best solution is, it requires dedicated research and like you said the whole system is really very complex. My initial feeling was that if people are going to "warm banks" to keep warm, then maybe help can be offered there so they can keep the meters running at home, but apparently this is a very silly idea. I thought with all the targeting tools they've got for people nowdays it would be relatively easy to identify key constituencies who are most in need very cheaply and with low admin cost anyway? Are you saying that you think pension credits are a top up for people who may not have paid enough NI or is that not it? I think their primary purpose is to top up income for anyone who is in poverty as a pensioner, that's mainly what they were made for. |
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 22, 2024 16:23:45 GMT
Are you saying that you think pension credits are a top up for people who may not have paid enough NI or is that not it? I think their primary purpose is to top up income for anyone who is in poverty as a pensioner, that's mainly what they were made for. So is it like, "So you didn't save for your pension so here's some extra money" whereas those who did save don;t get the extra money? That seems to be rewarding irresponsibility. Off course as we have already discussed "You didn't save for your pension" can cover both those who chose not to and those who didn't get paid enough to. |
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Post by dappy on Aug 22, 2024 16:25:56 GMT
I keep asking the same question.
It’s a very simple one.
We know that those people currently in receipt of pension credit will get an additional benefit WFA equivalent to £4 per week (£6 per week if over 80). I assume we are agreed on that.
I believe we also agree that we don’t want all pensioners to get WFA.
You however want to give state support to some old people presumably those just above pension credit thresholds.
Your last post seems to read that you intend the government to put some “fuel vouchers” behind a desk at a “community hub” and anyone who rocks up and asks nicely can have fuel vouchers ( effectively free government money) given to them but if you don’t want or are unable to attend these hubs you can’t have them.
I can’t believe that is what you intend so I suspect either you haven’t explained it clearly or I have misunderstood.
So I hate to labour the point but exactly who is eligible for free money (even if in voucher form) and how much do you propose to give them.
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Post by dappy on Aug 22, 2024 16:30:23 GMT
I think their primary purpose is to top up income for anyone who is in poverty as a pensioner, that's mainly what they were made for. So is it like, "So you didn't save for your pension so here's some extra money" whereas those who did save don;t get the extra money? That seems to be rewarding irresponsibility. Off course as we have already discussed "You didn't save for your pension" can cover both those who chose not to and those who didn't get paid enough to. To some extent you can use that argument for all benefits. There are many reasons why someone may not have earned enough years contributions to earn a state or private pension - eg illness. Fact is though whether through irresponsibility or not, there are people with no assets and limited pension income. Choice state has is to either give them a basic income to survive (pension credit) or let them starve. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2024 16:40:12 GMT
I think their primary purpose is to top up income for anyone who is in poverty as a pensioner, that's mainly what they were made for. So is it like, "So you didn't save for your pension so here's some extra money" whereas those who did save don;t get the extra money? That seems to be rewarding irresponsibility. Off course as we have already discussed "You didn't save for your pension" can cover both those who chose not to and those who didn't get paid enough to. As others have hinted, it's not just one singular reason, there can be many different reasons and several at the same time |
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