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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2024 17:35:32 GMT
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 7, 2024 10:26:24 GMT
I don't know where to start. It does look as though Labour are determined to be very centrist. It also looks as though in the UK it's impossible to get elected as a socialist party so we are all doomed unless we are very rich or very lucky
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Post by Zany on Aug 10, 2024 17:55:56 GMT
I don't know where to start. It does look as though Labour are determined to be very centrist. It also looks as though in the UK it's impossible to get elected as a socialist party so we are all doomed unless we are very rich or very lucky If only they hadn't promised not to raise tax. But then would they have got elected? So question is, do we care enough to want a socialist government. Even if we knew what that meant. |
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Post by patman post on Aug 11, 2024 12:21:20 GMT
I don't know where to start. It does look as though Labour are determined to be very centrist. It also looks as though in the UK it's impossible to get elected as a socialist party so we are all doomed unless we are very rich or very lucky Elections since WWII indicate that the UK electorate are mostly happier with governments in the range of centre Left to centre Right — they don’t want the grey level morass that socialist preaching appears to promise and, since Brexit, they certainly don’t want to be governed by the self-harming reactionary Right… |
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Post by Zany on Aug 11, 2024 19:06:28 GMT
I don't know where to start. It does look as though Labour are determined to be very centrist. It also looks as though in the UK it's impossible to get elected as a socialist party so we are all doomed unless we are very rich or very lucky Elections since WWII indicate that the UK electorate are mostly happier with governments in the range of centre Left to centre Right — they don’t want the grey level morass that socialist preaching appears to promise and, since Brexit, they certainly don’t want to be governed by the self-harming reactionary Right… Yep, every time a party veers from the current centre they get kicked out. Talk about slow learners. Change does happen but it happens over many decades, not 5 years. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2024 13:01:33 GMT
I don't know where to start. It does look as though Labour are determined to be very centrist. It also looks as though in the UK it's impossible to get elected as a socialist party so we are all doomed unless we are very rich or very lucky Elections since WWII indicate that the UK electorate are mostly happier with governments in the range of centre Left to centre Right — they don’t want the grey level morass that socialist preaching appears to promise and, since Brexit, they certainly don’t want to be governed by the self-harming reactionary Right… Without "socialist" Clement Attlee there would be no NHS, granted, he was voted out fairly quickly and churchill got back in so yes they don't like socialists, which doesn't mean they don't need them But I don't like socialism and prefer something different, nonetheless, right wing Tory labour in the form of Keir Starmer offer no suitable alternative and are going to trash the country as much as the Tories |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2024 13:04:57 GMT
Elections since WWII indicate that the UK electorate are mostly happier with governments in the range of centre Left to centre Right — they don’t want the grey level morass that socialist preaching appears to promise and, since Brexit, they certainly don’t want to be governed by the self-harming reactionary Right… Yep, every time a party veers from the current centre they get kicked out. Talk about slow learners. Change does happen but it happens over many decades, not 5 years. Well to use an example from here in the USA: Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin were "blue dog" right wing Democrats. I have no issue with that in particular as long as they're principled but Manchin was part of a coal mine operation that broke the law so many times it defied belief and was funded by GOP billionaires. And Sinema? Where to start? www.commondreams.org/news/2021/09/27/cartoonish-level-corrupt-dems-fight-bold-agenda-sinema-fundraise-its-corporateI can't stand socialists like Corbyn who have no principles either, same as Starmer, same as the likes of Sinema, Manchin etc. There's no difference as far as I'm concerned, stick right-wing Tories in for all I care as long as they have principles and love the country and try to do the best by it that they can. That's literally all I care about You won't get this Lab govt caring about disabled people will you? They don't give a stuff about them |
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Post by patman post on Aug 13, 2024 15:17:20 GMT
Elections since WWII indicate that the UK electorate are mostly happier with governments in the range of centre Left to centre Right — they don’t want the grey level morass that socialist preaching appears to promise and, since Brexit, they certainly don’t want to be governed by the self-harming reactionary Right… Without "socialist" Clement Attlee there would be no NHS, granted, he was voted out fairly quickly and churchill got back in so yes they don't like socialists, which doesn't mean they don't need them But I don't like socialism and prefer something different, nonetheless, right wing Tory labour in the form of Keir Starmer offer no suitable alternative and are going to trash the country as much as the Tories Starmer has imposed some necessary discipline on Labour — the Tories will have to eventually do the same, although they've got a few years.
Starmer saw how internal conflicts made both Conservatives and Labour unelectable — and to implement its policies, a party not only has to get elected, but also have the support of its MPs — and I think Starmer has taken on board that politics is the art of the possible...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2024 20:01:19 GMT
Without "socialist" Clement Attlee there would be no NHS, granted, he was voted out fairly quickly and churchill got back in so yes they don't like socialists, which doesn't mean they don't need them But I don't like socialism and prefer something different, nonetheless, right wing Tory labour in the form of Keir Starmer offer no suitable alternative and are going to trash the country as much as the Tories Starmer has imposed some necessary discipline on Labour — the Tories will have to eventually do the same, although they've got a few years.
Starmer saw how internal conflicts made both Conservatives and Labour unelectable — and to implement its policies, a party not only has to get elected, but also have the support of its MPs — and I think Starmer has taken on board that politics is the art of the possible...
Internal conflict? Maybe you need to read up about the civil war in Labour between Sue Gray and some other bigwig now fighting each other, or Starmer removing the whip from those MPs recently or etc If that's discipline, I'd hate to see what disarray looks like And that "politics is the art of the possible" is the trope I always see being bandied around before people here in the USA defend Kyrsten Sinema or Joe Manchin, both of whom were corrupt as sin |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2024 23:52:16 GMT
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Post by AvonCalling on Aug 14, 2024 15:02:28 GMT
Why do you (Borg) consider Labour to be Tories when I, for example, consider them to be left of centre?
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Post by patman post on Aug 14, 2024 21:44:03 GMT
Why do you (Borg) consider Labour to be Tories when I, for example, consider them to be left of centre? Probably because, like Trump, their only arguments are based on name-calling and lying about whoever opposes their opinions… |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2024 23:06:42 GMT
Why do you (Borg) consider Labour to be Tories when I, for example, consider them to be left of centre? Because they're aping Tory policies and the Lab thinktank chief thinks a Rwanda-style scheme is an excellent idea? They're even talking about adding more private services to the NHS and you don't think that's vaguely right wing |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2024 23:07:45 GMT
Why do you (Borg) consider Labour to be Tories when I, for example, consider them to be left of centre? Probably because, like Trump, their only arguments are based on name-calling and lying about whoever opposes their opinions… Who is 'they'? I'm not a Trumpist or a Corbynite, what labelling are you going to come up with next to try and lump me in with some disparate group of people you see as your enemies? Name one thing I've lied about. Go on - name one thing, if you can't then we can be sure you're lying yourself |
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Post by Zany on Aug 15, 2024 7:40:01 GMT
Why do you (Borg) consider Labour to be Tories when I, for example, consider them to be left of centre? Because they're aping Tory policies and the Lab thinktank chief thinks a Rwanda-style scheme is an excellent idea? They're even talking about adding more private services to the NHS and you don't think that's vaguely right wing Not in my opinion. What extra private services are they talking about adding to the NHS? But more importantly would such services be available free to all? The Tories reduced the NHS to a sham forcing people who could afford it to go private, a two tier system. That's the difference to my mind. |
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