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Post by Amadan on Jul 23, 2024 7:28:04 GMT
I dont think full EV will be the way forward, im sure eventually it will be hydrogen or some bio fuel used to power engines. You might well be right. It sounds more likely than viable charging points for all. I see the labour government are being taken to court today by friends of the earth over failing to change the conservatives failed climate policies? On top of that , starmer is coming under severe criticism from green groups after his spokesperson said he isnt opposed to building another Heathrow runway? It's all going to end in tears Steve. Change? what change? |
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Post by Zany on Jul 23, 2024 7:54:21 GMT
Indeed. If people find themselves being driven off the roads in large numbers due to the changes not being properly thought through and problems fully addressed, the political backlash will be huge, and will do the Green cause serious and undesirable damage. And it is just the sort of populist cause that the likes of Farage will take advantage of. We don't need that. We are already seeing the backlash gather pace against green policy aimed at hammering the working class. Trump in America is already talking about scrapping Ev car policy , as he knows it's a vote winner , and his mate Farage will certainly follow suit if he hasn't already over here. If the future is green then we need sensible policy that has everyone on board and is affordable , not blind ideology and government not listening. if im not mistaken new lorries are already exempt from the 2030 ban ( or is it 2035....labour haven't clarified) so the climbdown has already begun , and expect more backtracking as time goes by. I agree to an extent. I think net zero has been misused by councils and the London mayor to put unpopular speed limits in place and to charge people huge taxes to get from A to B. These restrictions have very little effect on climate change and are more about local pollution and money making. They should say this and not hide behind climate change. EV's are not yet foisted upon anyone as yet and will not be for another 10 years at least, most of the current issues will be fixed by then. Other schemes like heat pumps have also been delayed because of the mess our economy is in. Not sure if you think climate change is real, man made, or a concern. But from my point of the reason we are under so much pressure to change quickly now because we did nothing for 20 plus years after we were told about the issue and its potentially catastrophic effects. It is only now as we begin to see the monetary cost of these effects becoming reality in our own countries that governments are rushing to make the changes needed to slow it. Can I ask, have you ever discussed the costs to the poor of not stopping climate change? By example the tax needed to rebuild the sea defences all around the Essex coast because of higher anomalous tides etc. |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 23, 2024 8:03:03 GMT
We are already seeing the backlash gather pace against green policy aimed at hammering the working class. Trump in America is already talking about scrapping Ev car policy , as he knows it's a vote winner , and his mate Farage will certainly follow suit if he hasn't already over here. If the future is green then we need sensible policy that has everyone on board and is affordable , not blind ideology and government not listening. if im not mistaken new lorries are already exempt from the 2030 ban ( or is it 2035....labour haven't clarified) so the climbdown has already begun , and expect more backtracking as time goes by. I agree to an extent. I think net zero has been misused by councils and the London mayor to put unpopular speed limits in place and to charge people huge taxes to get from A to B. These restrictions have very little effect on climate change and are more about local pollution. They should say this and mot hide behind climate change. EV's are not yet foisted upon anyone as yet and will not be for another 10 years at least, most of the current issues will be fixed by then. Other schemes like heat pumps have also been delayed because of the mess our economy is in. Not sure if you think climate change is real, man made, or a concern. But from my point of the reason we are under so much pressure to change quickly now because we did nothing for 20 plus years after we were told about the issue and its potentially catastrophic effects. It is only now as we begin to see the monetary cost of these effects becoming reality in our own countries that governments are rushing to make the changes needed to slow it. Can I ask, have you ever discussed the costs to the poor of not stopping climate change? By example the tax needed to rebuild the sea defences all around the Essex coast because of higher anomalous tides etc. climate change is real .The question is , is it man made or natural. The jury is out , but im open minded . However , irrespective of the argument behind that , no person on earth is going to accept being poorer colder and worse off. Nor are populations going to accept piss taking politicians hiding behind climate arguments to clobber the working classes with excessive taxes. we can see for example from the introduction of Glasgows ulez for example , ( emissions in Glasgow are already far better than they were 60 yeas ago without ulez)how it disproportionately clobbers working class people with older cars and vans . People are open to new technology , i certainly am , but no one is going to make themselves poorer , and more inconvenienced , to appease a problem that may or may not exist. I find it all similar to the covid argument. take an existing sniffle , greatly exaggerate it , close down society and bring in restrictive policies and promote fear , ( while the politicians and the rich party) and expect the public to tag along without thought. |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 23, 2024 8:06:02 GMT
We are already seeing the backlash gather pace against green policy aimed at hammering the working class. Trump in America is already talking about scrapping Ev car policy , as he knows it's a vote winner , and his mate Farage will certainly follow suit if he hasn't already over here. If the future is green then we need sensible policy that has everyone on board and is affordable , not blind ideology and government not listening. if im not mistaken new lorries are already exempt from the 2030 ban ( or is it 2035....labour haven't clarified) so the climbdown has already begun , and expect more backtracking as time goes by. By example the tax needed to rebuild the sea defences all around the Essex coast because of higher anomalous tides etc. meanwhile , talking about flooding , your new governments plan for England (and scotland is they get in in 2026) is to relax planning laws so private builders can build housing estates on floodplains and next to rivers? then when they flood , blame the climate? genius? As for heat pumps zany , please dont get me started. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 23, 2024 8:15:52 GMT
I agree to an extent. I think net zero has been misused by councils and the London mayor to put unpopular speed limits in place and to charge people huge taxes to get from A to B. These restrictions have very little effect on climate change and are more about local pollution. They should say this and mot hide behind climate change. EV's are not yet foisted upon anyone as yet and will not be for another 10 years at least, most of the current issues will be fixed by then. Other schemes like heat pumps have also been delayed because of the mess our economy is in. Not sure if you think climate change is real, man made, or a concern. But from my point of the reason we are under so much pressure to change quickly now because we did nothing for 20 plus years after we were told about the issue and its potentially catastrophic effects. It is only now as we begin to see the monetary cost of these effects becoming reality in our own countries that governments are rushing to make the changes needed to slow it. Can I ask, have you ever discussed the costs to the poor of not stopping climate change? By example the tax needed to rebuild the sea defences all around the Essex coast because of higher anomalous tides etc. climate change is real .The question is , is it man made or natural. The jury is out , but im open minded . However , irrespective of the argument behind that , no person on earth is going to accept being poorer colder and worse off. Nor are populations going to accept piss taking politicians hiding behind climate arguments to clobber the working classes with excessive taxes. we can see for example from the introduction of Glasgows ulez for example , ( emissions in Glasgow are already far better than they were 60 yeas ago without ulez)how it disproportionately clobbers working class people with older cars and vans . People are open to new technology , i certainly am , but no one is going to make themselves poorer , and more inconvenienced , to appease a problem that may or may not exist. I find it all similar to the covid argument. take an existing sniffle , greatly exaggerate it , close down society and bring in restrictive policies and promote fear , ( while the politicians and the rich party) and expect the public to tag along without thought. Disagree with you on Covid, but that's a different subject all together. I see the need to accelerate green technology and its cost counter balancing the cost of doing nothing. If we continue to do nothing we will see more tropical weather in the UK and our infrastructure is not designed for it. Our house roofs and walls are not white we don't have the enormous spillways you see in most southern European countries. We lack the reservoirs needed for capture the change in rainfall patterns. Many of our commercial roofs are not designed for the high temperatures we are beginning to see. All our these changes needed will be charged to the working classes in some way or another. As I say the cost of doing nothing is never discussed but very real. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 23, 2024 8:27:01 GMT
By example the tax needed to rebuild the sea defences all around the Essex coast because of higher anomalous tides etc. meanwhile , talking about flooding , your new governments plan for England (and scotland is they get in in 2026) is to relax planning laws so private builders can build housing estates on floodplains and next to rivers? then when they flood , blame the climate? genius? As for heat pumps zany , please dont get me started. I was very specific in talking about the sea defences in order to circumvent the inevitable retort about building on flood plains. Do you recognise the cost of those sea defences as a result of climate change. I have heat pumps, they work better than my central heating did. The problem I see is that the government are pushing the incredibly expensive and not brilliant ground source heat pump and giant radiator systems. I think this is a cynical attempt to be seen to be trying to do something while actually doing nothing. The system is so expensive that even with the grant no one can afford it. Air source heat pumps like I have in my 4 bed house cost about 2k supply and install and as I say work very well. They output about 3kw of energy for every 1kw put in. I think if the government offered grants to help towards these the uptake would be far greater and over time the myths about their being unless would dissipate. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 23, 2024 8:56:46 GMT
We are already seeing the backlash gather pace against green policy aimed at hammering the working class. Trump in America is already talking about scrapping Ev car policy , as he knows it's a vote winner , and his mate Farage will certainly follow suit if he hasn't already over here. If the future is green then we need sensible policy that has everyone on board and is affordable , not blind ideology and government not listening. if im not mistaken new lorries are already exempt from the 2030 ban ( or is it 2035....labour haven't clarified) so the climbdown has already begun , and expect more backtracking as time goes by. I agree to an extent. I think net zero has been misused by councils and the London mayor to put unpopular speed limits in place and to charge people huge taxes to get from A to B. These restrictions have very little effect on climate change and are more about local pollution and money making. They should say this and not hide behind climate change. EV's are not yet foisted upon anyone as yet and will not be for another 10 years at least, most of the current issues will be fixed by then. . . . Why do you think those issues will be fixed by then. As SRB has explained we have no solution for charging cars of those who live in flats etc. And are we on track to roll out enough fast chargers nationwide? No. Do we have a solution for the loss of fuel tax revenue? No. Do we have anything like a solution for the big vehicle emitters (trucks and cargo ships) No I fully expect our deadline on cars to be put back and we won't be the only nation to do so. Not saying that's right but it is real politik |
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Post by Zany on Jul 23, 2024 9:12:10 GMT
I agree to an extent. I think net zero has been misused by councils and the London mayor to put unpopular speed limits in place and to charge people huge taxes to get from A to B. These restrictions have very little effect on climate change and are more about local pollution and money making. They should say this and not hide behind climate change. EV's are not yet foisted upon anyone as yet and will not be for another 10 years at least, most of the current issues will be fixed by then. . . . Why do you think those issues will be fixed by then. As SRB has explained we have no solution for charging cars of those who live in flats etc. And are we on track to roll out enough fast chargers nationwide? No. Do we have a solution for the loss of fuel tax revenue? No. Do we have anything like a solution for the big vehicle emitters (trucks and cargo ships) No I fully expect our deadline on cars to be put back and we won't be the only nation to do so. Not saying that's right but it is real politik Because I think the growth in electric vehicles leads to the growth supply systems as we are already seeing. There are currently 64,000 charging points in the UK. A further 11,700 added in 2023, so roll out is accelerating. Batteries are increasing in capacity for larger vehicles, but we're not there yet. In my opinion doing something about the easier projects is better than saying do nothing. I fully expect to see extended range PHEV's to be allowed, I am aware this is being discussed in the EU already. |
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Post by montegriffo on Jul 23, 2024 9:16:29 GMT
I agree to an extent. I think net zero has been misused by councils and the London mayor to put unpopular speed limits in place and to charge people huge taxes to get from A to B. These restrictions have very little effect on climate change and are more about local pollution. They should say this and mot hide behind climate change. EV's are not yet foisted upon anyone as yet and will not be for another 10 years at least, most of the current issues will be fixed by then. Other schemes like heat pumps have also been delayed because of the mess our economy is in. Not sure if you think climate change is real, man made, or a concern. But from my point of the reason we are under so much pressure to change quickly now because we did nothing for 20 plus years after we were told about the issue and its potentially catastrophic effects. It is only now as we begin to see the monetary cost of these effects becoming reality in our own countries that governments are rushing to make the changes needed to slow it. Can I ask, have you ever discussed the costs to the poor of not stopping climate change? By example the tax needed to rebuild the sea defences all around the Essex coast because of higher anomalous tides etc. climate change is real .The question is , is it man made or natural. The jury is out , but im open minded . However , irrespective of the argument behind that , no person on earth is going to accept being poorer colder and worse off. Nor are populations going to accept piss taking politicians hiding behind climate arguments to clobber the working classes with excessive taxes. we can see for example from the introduction of Glasgows ulez for example , ( emissions in Glasgow are already far better than they were 60 yeas ago without ulez)how it disproportionately clobbers working class people with older cars and vans . People are open to new technology , i certainly am , but no one is going to make themselves poorer , and more inconvenienced , to appease a problem that may or may not exist. I find it all similar to the covid argument. take an existing sniffle , greatly exaggerate it , close down society and bring in restrictive policies and promote fear , ( while the politicians and the rich party) and expect the public to tag along without thought. Hold on a minute. You can't start your post with ''climate change is real'' and end it with '' a problem that may or may not exist''. Pick a side mate. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,698
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Post by Steve on Jul 23, 2024 9:18:15 GMT
Why do you think those issues will be fixed by then. As SRB has explained we have no solution for charging cars of those who live in flats etc. And are we on track to roll out enough fast chargers nationwide? No. Do we have a solution for the loss of fuel tax revenue? No. Do we have anything like a solution for the big vehicle emitters (trucks and cargo ships) No I fully expect our deadline on cars to be put back and we won't be the only nation to do so. Not saying that's right but it is real politik Because I think the growth in electric vehicles leads to the growth supply systems as we are already seeing. There are currently 64,000 charging points in the UK. A further 11,700 added in 2023, so roll out is accelerating. Batteries are increasing in capacity for larger vehicles, but we're not there yet. In my opinion doing something about the easier projects is better than saying do nothing. I fully expect to see extended range PHEV's to be allowed, I am aware this is being discussed in the EU already. The ratio of public chargers per Electric Vehicle isn't just poor, it's been getting worse www.smmt.co.uk/reports/electric-vehicle-infrastructure-position-paper/ |
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Post by patman post on Jul 23, 2024 12:14:29 GMT
Because I think the growth in electric vehicles leads to the growth supply systems as we are already seeing. There are currently 64,000 charging points in the UK. A further 11,700 added in 2023, so roll out is accelerating. Batteries are increasing in capacity for larger vehicles, but we're not there yet. In my opinion doing something about the easier projects is better than saying do nothing. I fully expect to see extended range PHEV's to be allowed, I am aware this is being discussed in the EU already. The ratio of public chargers per Electric Vehicle isn't just poor, it's been getting worse www.smmt.co.uk/reports/electric-vehicle-infrastructure-position-paper/ 2023 was the best year for new electric car sales with 314,687 new EV registrations – up from 267,204 in 2022.
(that's a 17.8% increase in sales**).
At the end of June 2024, there were 64,775 electric vehicle charging points across the UK, across 33,829 charging locations.
This represents a year-on-year increase of 46%** in the number of public devices, with 20,367 installed since June 2023.
**Not exactly year on year comparisons, but comparable enough to show a distinct decrease in number of EVs per public charging point.
Given that the growth in the number of public chargers is outstripping the growth in EV sales, and distances travelled per charge is growing, I guess we have to expect some new taxes to compensate for the loss of revenue raised by taxes and duties on fossil fuelled vehicles...
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Post by Zany on Jul 23, 2024 16:23:08 GMT
Because I think the growth in electric vehicles leads to the growth supply systems as we are already seeing. There are currently 64,000 charging points in the UK. A further 11,700 added in 2023, so roll out is accelerating. Batteries are increasing in capacity for larger vehicles, but we're not there yet. In my opinion doing something about the easier projects is better than saying do nothing. I fully expect to see extended range PHEV's to be allowed, I am aware this is being discussed in the EU already. The ratio of public chargers per Electric Vehicle isn't just poor, it's been getting worse That's a good link. It says Government, local authorities and the charging infrastructure sector deserve credit for the more than 3,000% growth in public charging infrastructure since the first charge points were installed in 2011.It goes on to say;
However, every single reputable study or consumer survey have invariably and consistently shown that the inadequacy of infrastructure provision is still a concern for many consumers. This is the feelings of people, not necessarily to experience of EV owners. Unfortunately the figures for growth in the article are out of date As plug-in vehicle registrations surged, public charging infrastructure expansion has failed to keep pace. Plug-in cars on the road had grown a phenomenal 280.3% between 2019 and 2021,At this time UK has almost 1m EV chargers, with new public one installed every 25 minutes.
www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jul/15/electric-vehicle-ev-chargers-uk-installations#:~:text=Automotive%20industry-,UK%20has%20almost%201m%20EV%20chargers%2C%20with%20new,one%20installed%20every%2025%20minutes&text=There%20are%20now%20almost%201m,increasing%20sales%20of%20battery%20vehicles. |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 23, 2024 17:14:32 GMT
2023 was the best year for new electric car sales with 314,687 new EV registrations – up from 267,204 in 2022.
(that's a 17.8% increase in sales**).
At the end of June 2024, there were 64,775 electric vehicle charging points across the UK, across 33,829 charging locations.
This represents a year-on-year increase of 46%** in the number of public devices, with 20,367 installed since June 2023.
**Not exactly year on year comparisons, but comparable enough to show a distinct decrease in number of EVs per public charging point.
Given that the growth in the number of public chargers is outstripping the growth in EV sales, and distances travelled per charge is growing, I guess we have to expect some new taxes to compensate for the loss of revenue raised by taxes and duties on fossil fuelled vehicles...
when you say EVs , does that include hybrids , as we discussed up the page aren't a viable long term alternative to petrol and diesel? 4/5 fully electric vehicles sold or leased are fleet vehicles , as central governments are encouraging companies to go green with massive subsidies and incentives. Take that away , and how many EV sales is the lowly man in the street making? Stellantis could stop producing vehicles in the UK within a year, if the Government doesn’t take action to stimulate demand for electric vehicles (EV).
Speaking at a Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) conference in London, Stellantis UK head Maria Grazia Davino said the business will evaluate alternative locations for production if the UK market becomes “hostile”.
“Range anxiety, poor charging infrastructure, and the price of electric cars have meant the demand for fully electric vehicles has slowed down in the UK — as elsewhere — so many auto manufacturers not only face huge penalties starting this year, with these penalties growing rapidly annually till 2030
www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/stellantis-threatens-to-end-uk-production-over-poor-ev-incentives#:~:text=“Range%20anxiety%2C%20poor%20charging%20infrastructure,annually%20till%202030%20when%20the
The proportion of battery electric vehicles sold in the UK car market has shrunk, according to new industry figures.
Some 15.2% of new cars registered in March were pure electrics, down from 16.2% during the same period last year, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) said.
The industry body said the "tough economic backdrop" of low growth, weak consumer confidence and high interest rates was making it harder for drivers to "invest in these new technologies".
Year-on-year sales of electric vehicles (EVs) did rise during the month, but this was mostly driven by fleet investment, rather than from private drivers, the SMMT said.
news.sky.com/story/electric-car-uk-market-share-shrinks-figures-suggest-13107632
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Post by Amadan on Jul 23, 2024 17:21:27 GMT
The ratio of public chargers per Electric Vehicle isn't just poor, it's been getting worse That's a good link. It says Government, local authorities and the charging infrastructure sector deserve credit for the more than 3,000% growth in public charging infrastructure since the first charge points were installed in 2011.It goes on to say;
However, every single reputable study or consumer survey have invariably and consistently shown that the inadequacy of infrastructure provision is still a concern for many consumers. This is the feelings of people, not necessarily to experience of EV owners. Unfortunately the figures for growth in the article are out of date As plug-in vehicle registrations surged, public charging infrastructure expansion has failed to keep pace. Plug-in cars on the road had grown a phenomenal 280.3% between 2019 and 2021,At this time UK has almost 1m EV chargers, with new public one installed every 25 minutes.
www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jul/15/electric-vehicle-ev-chargers-uk-installations#:~:text=Automotive%20industry-,UK%20has%20almost%201m%20EV%20chargers%2C%20with%20new,one%20installed%20every%2025%20minutes&text=There%20are%20now%20almost%201m,increasing%20sales%20of%20battery%20vehicles. right but as Steve said , the ratio is getting worse ?
UK’s car to public charge point ratio worsens despite EV push
February 5, 2024
Editorial Board EVBoosters
The United Kingdom’s ambition to become a leader in electric vehicle (EV) adoption faces significant hurdles as a recent report from the House of Lords highlights a deteriorating ratio of cars to public charge points across the country from 2019 to 2022. Titled “EV Strategy: Rapid Recharge Needed”, the comprehensive study underscores the growing challenge of providing adequate charging infrastructure to meet the rising demand for electric vehicles.
According to the analysis, conducted by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) and based on Department for Transport data, every region in the UK has seen the ratio of Charge Points to EVs worsen over the specified period.
evboosters.com/ev-charging-news/uks-car-to-public-charge-point-ratio-worsens-despite-ev-push/
in this article here it says a third of the uks chargers are out of order , which heightens range anxiety and is one of the reason cited why hybrids are more popular than full EV...
WHY ARE SO MANY UK EV CHARGERS BROKEN? EXPERT DISCUSSES THE NEED FOR PROPER MAINTENANCE WITHIN EV CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE
With as much as 30 per cent of charge points being out of order in parts of the UK, it’s natural to wonder what the root cause of the issue is – an issue that becomes even more problematic if we consider the already critical need to expand existing charging infrastructure.
www.electricaltimes.co.uk/why-are-so-many-uk-ev-chargers-broken-expert-discusses-the-need-for-proper-maintenance-within-electrical-vehicle-charging-infrastructure/ |
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Post by Zany on Jul 23, 2024 18:18:14 GMT
2023 was the best year for new electric car sales with 314,687 new EV registrations – up from 267,204 in 2022.
(that's a 17.8% increase in sales**).
At the end of June 2024, there were 64,775 electric vehicle charging points across the UK, across 33,829 charging locations.
This represents a year-on-year increase of 46%** in the number of public devices, with 20,367 installed since June 2023.
**Not exactly year on year comparisons, but comparable enough to show a distinct decrease in number of EVs per public charging point.
Given that the growth in the number of public chargers is outstripping the growth in EV sales, and distances travelled per charge is growing, I guess we have to expect some new taxes to compensate for the loss of revenue raised by taxes and duties on fossil fuelled vehicles...
when you say EVs , does that include hybrids , as we discussed up the page aren't a viable long term alternative to petrol and diesel? 4/5 fully electric vehicles sold or leased are fleet vehicles , as central governments are encouraging companies to go green with massive subsidies and incentives. Take that away , and how many EV sales is the lowly man in the street making? Stellantis could stop producing vehicles in the UK within a year, if the Government doesn’t take action to stimulate demand for electric vehicles (EV).
Speaking at a Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) conference in London, Stellantis UK head Maria Grazia Davino said the business will evaluate alternative locations for production if the UK market becomes “hostile”.
“Range anxiety, poor charging infrastructure, and the price of electric cars have meant the demand for fully electric vehicles has slowed down in the UK — as elsewhere — so many auto manufacturers not only face huge penalties starting this year, with these penalties growing rapidly annually till 2030
www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/stellantis-threatens-to-end-uk-production-over-poor-ev-incentives#:~:text=“Range%20anxiety%2C%20poor%20charging%20infrastructure,annually%20till%202030%20when%20the
The proportion of battery electric vehicles sold in the UK car market has shrunk, according to new industry figures.
Some 15.2% of new cars registered in March were pure electrics, down from 16.2% during the same period last year, the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) said.
The industry body said the "tough economic backdrop" of low growth, weak consumer confidence and high interest rates was making it harder for drivers to "invest in these new technologies".
Year-on-year sales of electric vehicles (EVs) did rise during the month, but this was mostly driven by fleet investment, rather than from private drivers, the SMMT said.
news.sky.com/story/electric-car-uk-market-share-shrinks-figures-suggest-13107632
1% down is pretty good considering the economy. Though I suspect the deeper story is that electric cars are bought by wealthier people who have been hit les by mortgage hikes. |
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