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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2024 18:54:53 GMT
 Imagine, you book in with the app and at 3 in the morning the truck stops in the street and charges 5 of the cars including yours. Thereby potentially blocking the street for hours in terraced areas, creating access problems for late night workers and emergency vehicles. This is not going to be a viable option in most places. But taking the idea of overnight charging. If it is going to be viable it has to take place somewhere other than in residential streets. The obvious place is public car parks, but the nearest ones to me are ten minutes walk away, which can be uncomfortable if it is blowing a gale and pouring with rain. Some people live much further away from car parks than I do. And there is a security issue if many of us are charging our cars in unguarded car parks at night well away from our homes. And also the existing parking capacity will likely not be large enough if car parks are being used for charging as well as shopping. And I know I would worry about my car if it were not parked overnight in view of my flat. So on the face of it there are many problems to solve for such a solution to be viable and attractive. It is not yet a silver bullet. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 22, 2024 19:05:16 GMT
The suggestion of this thread was a potential solution to the above concerns about charging. Strangely they barely get a mention. I think many have made up their minds on EV's and don't want them changed. I remember back in the day similar attitudes towards a phone you could carry around with you. To big, to expensive, will go flat just when you need it, will never take off. Some things do take off. Some things don't. Some things do partially depending upon personal circumstances for viability. I am willing to have my mind changed but I need to be reassured re affordability, viability for me personally, and an ability to access reliable charging points near my home as and when I need them - guaranteed - with no one else able to park in that spot, and the ability to drive to some sort of top up centre analogous to a petrol station where I can charge my car fully in a reasonable period of time. Solve these problems with something a bit better than it will be alright on the night, and I might be persuaded. As it stands, if the costs of them can be reduced I would be willing to consider a hybrid for my next car, but that's as far as I can go right now. In my workplace in a car park full of about 150 parking spaces, only 4 have charging points. And yet it is very rare to see anyone using them. Even the minority driving electric cars never use them, presumably because they are just the people for whom charging at home is a viable option, hence their decision to buy one. Charging point viability, cost, and the avoidance of range anxiety and charge point absence anxiety need to be resolved to my satisfaction before I am persuaded. Think of me as representative of your typical sceptic armed with a range of legitimate concerns. Persuade me and you can persuade most. But essentially we need something that we can see in place that addresses our concerns in terms of infrastructure, and makes EVs viable for us. When it becomes viable, that will win the argument for you. Until then, promises of a future where it will come good require an act of faith in the powers that be which I lack. When an EV becomes truly viable for me, I will consider one for my next car. Until then I won't. I'm going to stick my neck out here SRB and suggest you don't buy new cars? Well this is why the banning of new ICE cars will not happen for another 10 years? So that for the next 15 years you can continue to buy ICE. And that you can continue to own ICE for another 5 after that. And I suggest that in 20 years there will be very many second hand EV's for sale, the technology will be proven (Indeed old) and the charging sorted. At the moment I would defy anyone to sell you a new z fold mobile, even though they are proven (And lovely) |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 22, 2024 19:09:01 GMT
fully electric car sales dont seem to be doing very well do they though? 4/5 sold are fleet vehicles for business who are being offered incentives to take them on , and every report im reading , and anecdotally hearing , is extremely negative from people who have bought them. The ability to charge an EV is one of the big factors that keep cropping up. I was working on an industrial estate a few weeks back , and the building next door to where I was has a load of EV chargers out front. I was there for 2 half hours , and during that time , a lady was trying to use a phone app to operate one of the EV chargers. By the time I had left , she's had been unable to do so , even leaving the estate. , and coming back to try a second time. I thought to myself what a load of absolute fucking about for nothing. self charging hybrids seem ok , but no way would buy or lease a fully electric vehicle as things stand. Clearly things haven't been thought through , and I would pay to watch one of these trucks rocking up on a busy Glaswegian city centre street to charge evs in the future. It would be a riot watching the fighting take place. Again my problem is twofold. Firstly purchase and maintenance costs for electric vehicles tend to be far higher and I am struggling to keep a car on the road as it is, yet need one to get to work. And secondly, as someone without a garage or drive - I live in an upstairs flat - charging points just are not viable for me. And even if they could be made so by being everywhere at huge cost, charging anxiety will be a very real thing. Will there be a parking spot near one when I get home from work? Which will be a constant worry. Zany's former suggestion in another thread a few months back that we will all be charging up a little and often everywhere we go just adds in multiple opportunities for charge point anxiety. I don't think that is a viable option as someone who stresses easily. Even one of the co-leaders of the Greens drives a hybrid and not a full electric because he lives in terraced housing with no charge points available. But at least in that sense he lives in the real world with most of us who cannot afford a detached house with garage in leafy suburbia. Hybrids need to come down in price so that they are no more expensive than petrol or diesel cars, and it has to be accepted that for many of us a hybrid car is as far as we can go. Also, as someone who from time to time works in a petrol filling station, the amount of people I see who cannot figure out how to use a pump is unbelievable. No way are such clowns ever going to get their heads round phone apps and whatever. I think it's called blind ideology overriding common sense Steve. Totally agree with all you have said. the excessive cost of purchase or lease make them EV a no no for many people , before we even come up against the practicalities .I too grew up and lived in council flats and tenements , and began driving many years ago while still living in a flat in the middle of the city , and its complete cloud cuckoo land some of the ideas that are being floated about charging . My current energy bills for my house for a family of four is circa £2500 per annum , roughly , and add the cost of these silly vehicles never mind cost of fitting a charger and we are talking hundreds , maybe even a thousand pounds more on top. Im not saying ideas and inventions might eventually come into place and make EVs affordable and practical , but in the next five years? |
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Post by Zany on Jul 22, 2024 19:10:18 GMT
Imagine, you book in with the app and at 3 in the morning the truck stops in the street and charges 5 of the cars including yours. Thereby potentially blocking the street for hours in terraced areas, creating access problems for late night workers and emergency vehicles. This is not going to be a viable option in most places. But taking the idea of overnight charging. If it is going to be viable it has to take place somewhere other than in residential streets. The obvious place is public car parks, but the nearest ones to me are ten minutes walk away, which can be uncomfortable if it is blowing a gale and pouring with rain. Some people live much further away from car parks than I do. And there is a security issue if many of us are charging our cars in unguarded car parks at night well away from our homes. And also the existing parking capacity will likely not be large enough if car parks are being used for charging as well as shopping. And I know I would worry about my car if it were not parked overnight in view of my flat. So on the face of it there are many problems to solve for such a solution to be viable and attractive. It is not yet a silver bullet. .Hence "At 3 in the morning" Hence "access from both ends of a one way street when in operation" as per my drawing. You said carparks would be no good, because you might not get a charging point when you want one, that getting enough power to them would be impossible, that you wouldn't want to have to leave your car there. There was to be no inconvenience involved or it was a no from you. Hence the truck. |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 22, 2024 19:14:56 GMT
confused .com. So why are we talking about hybrids as though they are a viable alternative for the future? We are nearly into august 2024 , and this ban is allegedly taking place in just over 5 years time. As I said , it appears when talking abut the flaws of full EV , we revert to hybrids as a diversion. If hybrids aren't the future , shouldn't we be talking about full electric and viable ways to improve them ? Clearly this hasn't been thought through by governments , and pardon the pun , we are watching the wheels come off as we speak . I can see bans getting kicked into the long grass , and loads of backtracking. Indeed. If people find themselves being driven off the roads in large numbers due to the changes not being properly thought through and problems fully addressed, the political backlash will be huge, and will do the Green cause serious and undesirable damage. And it is just the sort of populist cause that the likes of Farage will take advantage of. We don't need that. We are already seeing the backlash gather pace against green policy aimed at hammering the working class. Trump in America is already talking about scrapping Ev car policy , as he knows it's a vote winner , and his mate Farage will certainly follow suit if he hasn't already over here. If the future is green then we need sensible policy that has everyone on board and is affordable , not blind ideology and government not listening. if im not mistaken new lorries are already exempt from the 2030 ban ( or is it 2035....labour haven't clarified) so the climbdown has already begun , and expect more backtracking as time goes by. |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 22, 2024 19:18:48 GMT
Some things do take off. Some things don't. Some things do partially depending upon personal circumstances for viability. I am willing to have my mind changed but I need to be reassured re affordability, viability for me personally, and an ability to access reliable charging points near my home as and when I need them - guaranteed - with no one else able to park in that spot, and the ability to drive to some sort of top up centre analogous to a petrol station where I can charge my car fully in a reasonable period of time. Solve these problems with something a bit better than it will be alright on the night, and I might be persuaded. As it stands, if the costs of them can be reduced I would be willing to consider a hybrid for my next car, but that's as far as I can go right now. In my workplace in a car park full of about 150 parking spaces, only 4 have charging points. And yet it is very rare to see anyone using them. Even the minority driving electric cars never use them, presumably because they are just the people for whom charging at home is a viable option, hence their decision to buy one. Charging point viability, cost, and the avoidance of range anxiety and charge point absence anxiety need to be resolved to my satisfaction before I am persuaded. Think of me as representative of your typical sceptic armed with a range of legitimate concerns. Persuade me and you can persuade most. But essentially we need something that we can see in place that addresses our concerns in terms of infrastructure, and makes EVs viable for us. When it becomes viable, that will win the argument for you. Until then, promises of a future where it will come good require an act of faith in the powers that be which I lack. When an EV becomes truly viable for me, I will consider one for my next car. Until then I won't. I'm going to stick my neck out here SRB and suggest you don't buy new cars? Well this is why the banning of new ICE cars will not happen for another 10 years? So that for the next 15 years you can continue to buy ICE. And that you can continue to own ICE for another 5 after that. And I suggest that in 20 years there will be very many second hand EV's for sale, the technology will be proven (Indeed old) and the charging sorted. At the moment I would defy anyone to sell you a new z fold mobile, even though they are proven (And lovely) the banning of new ICE cars has not been confirmed .We dont know if it will happen in 2030 , or 2035 or longer. Green groups are advising the government they must make it 2030 to meet their climate commitments , but labour appear to be dithering. I personally wouldn't touch a second hand EV with a bargepole. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2024 19:24:56 GMT
Some things do take off. Some things don't. Some things do partially depending upon personal circumstances for viability. I am willing to have my mind changed but I need to be reassured re affordability, viability for me personally, and an ability to access reliable charging points near my home as and when I need them - guaranteed - with no one else able to park in that spot, and the ability to drive to some sort of top up centre analogous to a petrol station where I can charge my car fully in a reasonable period of time. Solve these problems with something a bit better than it will be alright on the night, and I might be persuaded. As it stands, if the costs of them can be reduced I would be willing to consider a hybrid for my next car, but that's as far as I can go right now. In my workplace in a car park full of about 150 parking spaces, only 4 have charging points. And yet it is very rare to see anyone using them. Even the minority driving electric cars never use them, presumably because they are just the people for whom charging at home is a viable option, hence their decision to buy one. Charging point viability, cost, and the avoidance of range anxiety and charge point absence anxiety need to be resolved to my satisfaction before I am persuaded. Think of me as representative of your typical sceptic armed with a range of legitimate concerns. Persuade me and you can persuade most. But essentially we need something that we can see in place that addresses our concerns in terms of infrastructure, and makes EVs viable for us. When it becomes viable, that will win the argument for you. Until then, promises of a future where it will come good require an act of faith in the powers that be which I lack. When an EV becomes truly viable for me, I will consider one for my next car. Until then I won't. I'm going to stick my neck out here SRB and suggest you don't buy new cars? Well this is why the banning of new ICE cars will not happen for another 10 years? So that for the next 15 years you can continue to buy ICE. And that you can continue to own ICE for another 5 after that. And I suggest that in 20 years there will be very many second hand EV's for sale, the technology will be proven (Indeed old) and the charging sorted. At the moment I would defy anyone to sell you a new z fold mobile, even though they are proven (And lovely) I have bought a new car in the past. My current car was a nearly new two year old car when I bought it 3 years ago on finance, It is now 5 years old. I have two years of payments still to make, and cannot possibly afford to replace it until this one is fully paid for. However, I intend to keep it for as long as possible. My medical situation means I will probably lose my license well before the roads are emptied of petrol vehicles. But as long as I can drive for the next 8 years when I can retire, then I can manage without one if needs be thereafter. But all that is besides the point. It is not just about me. And you post above is itself an example of blind faith without any suggestion of how, which leaves sceptics like me entirely unconvinced. For example your assertion that charging will be sorted by then without in any way saying how nor meaningfully addressing many of the myriad ways in which it remains unviable right now for many people, some of which I have highlighted in earlier posts in this thread. Blind faith that charging will be sorted for all by a specific date without saying how, or even acknowledging let alone addressing significant practical problems will not convince anyone but a fellow true believer. Which is the problem with blind faith right there. I am not saying that it will never be possible. I just don't see how at this stage. We are just not being offered viable solutions to our objections. Which worryingly looks as if the true believers and the powers that be are not thinking the problems through. And this will inevitably result in either the petrol ban being delayed or a serious political backlash of a damaging kind. When reality bites. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2024 19:30:02 GMT
Thereby potentially blocking the street for hours in terraced areas, creating access problems for late night workers and emergency vehicles. This is not going to be a viable option in most places. But taking the idea of overnight charging. If it is going to be viable it has to take place somewhere other than in residential streets. The obvious place is public car parks, but the nearest ones to me are ten minutes walk away, which can be uncomfortable if it is blowing a gale and pouring with rain. Some people live much further away from car parks than I do. And there is a security issue if many of us are charging our cars in unguarded car parks at night well away from our homes. And also the existing parking capacity will likely not be large enough if car parks are being used for charging as well as shopping. And I know I would worry about my car if it were not parked overnight in view of my flat. So on the face of it there are many problems to solve for such a solution to be viable and attractive. It is not yet a silver bullet. .Hence "At 3 in the morning" Hence "access from both ends of a one way street when in operation" as per my drawing. You said carparks would be no good, because you might not get a charging point when you want one, that getting enough power to them would be impossible, that you wouldn't want to have to leave your car there. There was to be no inconvenience involved or it was a no from you. Hence the truck. It is curious how you seem blind to the obvious problems of such a truck. Most terraced housing has roads double parked with resident permit holders only. They will still be double parked even if one way streets and a vehicle in the middle of the street will still block it even if it is one way. Unless you only allow parking on one side of the road. Which will clearly result in half the residents having nowhere to park. This is not a viable option. |
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Post by Amadan on Jul 22, 2024 19:34:28 GMT
I'm going to stick my neck out here SRB and suggest you don't buy new cars? Well this is why the banning of new ICE cars will not happen for another 10 years? So that for the next 15 years you can continue to buy ICE. And that you can continue to own ICE for another 5 after that. And I suggest that in 20 years there will be very many second hand EV's for sale, the technology will be proven (Indeed old) and the charging sorted. At the moment I would defy anyone to sell you a new z fold mobile, even though they are proven (And lovely) I have bought a new car in the past. My current car was a nearly new two year old car when I bought it 3 years ago on finance, It is now 5 years old. I have two years of payments still to make, and cannot possibly afford to replace it until this one is fully paid for. However, I intend to keep it for as long as possible. My medical situation means I will probably lose my license well before the roads are emptied of petrol vehicles. But as long as I can drive for the next 8 years when I can retire, then I can manage without one if needs be thereafter. But all that is besides the point. It is not just about me. And you post above is itself an example of blind faith without any suggestion of how, which leaves sceptics like me entirely unconvinced. For example your assertion that charging will be sorted by then without in any way saying how nor meaningfully addressing many of the myriad ways in which it remains unviable right now for many people, some of which I have highlighted in earlier posts in this thread. Blind faith that charging will be sorted for all by a specific date without saying how, or even acknowledging let alone addressing significant practical problems will not convince anyone but a fellow true believer. Which is the problem with blind faith right there. I am not saying that it will never be possible. I just don't see how at this stage. We are just not being offered viable solutions to our objections. Which worryingly looks as if the true believers and the powers that be are not thinking the problems through. And this will inevitably result in either the petrol ban being delayed or a serious political backlash of a damaging kind. When reality bites. I thought the attitude displayed to you rather condescending. Sort of "you are too poor to buy a new car so you opinion doesn't matter on the subject sort of thing" To me , it's the typical middle class liberal attitude to the working class or anyone else who questions their blind faith in all things green. No cunt in their right mind unless they are uber rich is going to buy a brand new EV anyway Steve They will lease them , because of worries about battery life , excessive cost of repair , and the general newness of the technology . The technology , infrastructure and general practicality as things stand mean these vehicles are mere rich mens toys . The poor sales , where 4/5 sold are being bought or leased by business who get tax incentives show clearly people aren't convinced , nor as daft as middle class green liberals think. I bet anything you like starmer will row back on commitments as soon as the political shit hits the fan. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2024 19:39:06 GMT
The obvious technological fix would be to greatly reduce the size of the batteries so that they become portable. Then instead of petrol filling stations you could have battery stations where you pull in, exchange your low battery for a fully charged one for a fee that reflects charging and staff costs, job done. If the damned EVs could be made affordable in the first place, job done. Such a solution would make them viable, and this is where technological R and D needs to be heading. It is no doubt not possible at the moment because if it were it would already be being done.
But that is the only conceivable technological advance that could make it all work that I can imagine so far. No one has come up with any other viable suggestions, and if the truck suggestion is anything to go by we clearly have a lot of serious thinking to do.
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Post by Amadan on Jul 22, 2024 19:47:11 GMT
The obvious technological fix would be to greatly reduce the size of the batteries so that they become portable. Then instead of petrol filling stations you could have battery stations where you pull in, exchange your low battery for a fully charged one for a fee that reflects charging and staff costs, job done. If the damned EVs could be made affordable in the first place, job done. Such a solution would make them viable, and this is where technological R and D needs to be heading. It is no doubt not possible at the moment because if it were it would already be being done. But that is the only conceivable technological advance that could make it all work that I can imagine so far. No one has come up with any other viable suggestions, and if the truck suggestion is anything to go by we clearly have a lot of serious thinking to do. I dont think full EV will be the way forward, im sure eventually it will be hydrogen or some bio fuel used to power engines. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2024 19:55:14 GMT
Indeed. If people find themselves being driven off the roads in large numbers due to the changes not being properly thought through and problems fully addressed, the political backlash will be huge, and will do the Green cause serious and undesirable damage. And it is just the sort of populist cause that the likes of Farage will take advantage of. We don't need that. We are already seeing the backlash gather pace against green policy aimed at hammering the working class. Trump in America is already talking about scrapping Ev car policy , as he knows it's a vote winner , and his mate Farage will certainly follow suit if he hasn't already over here. If the future is green then we need sensible policy that has everyone on board and is affordable , not blind ideology and government not listening. if im not mistaken new lorries are already exempt from the 2030 ban ( or is it 2035....labour haven't clarified) so the climbdown has already begun , and expect more backtracking as time goes by. Indeed. I do believe net zero is something to aim at but it needs to carry majority support, and obvious problems need to be meaningfully addressed without an assumption that it will all somehow work out on its own. Those of us with legitimate concerns as to viability need these concerns to be addressed as part of the solution, or the shit will hit the fan in due course which bad actors like Farage will take gleeful advantage of. In terms of viable solutions, if the truck at the beginning of this thread in spite of its immediately obvious flaws is the best they can come up with, then there is still a lot of work to do clearly. Labour will lose the working class vote again and be out of office in five years unless it recognises and properly addresses the very real problems with EVs for many working people. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2024 19:56:09 GMT
The obvious technological fix would be to greatly reduce the size of the batteries so that they become portable. Then instead of petrol filling stations you could have battery stations where you pull in, exchange your low battery for a fully charged one for a fee that reflects charging and staff costs, job done. If the damned EVs could be made affordable in the first place, job done. Such a solution would make them viable, and this is where technological R and D needs to be heading. It is no doubt not possible at the moment because if it were it would already be being done. But that is the only conceivable technological advance that could make it all work that I can imagine so far. No one has come up with any other viable suggestions, and if the truck suggestion is anything to go by we clearly have a lot of serious thinking to do. I dont think full EV will be the way forward, im sure eventually it will be hydrogen or some bio fuel used to power engines. You might well be right. It sounds more likely than viable charging points for all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2024 20:39:17 GMT
We had no issues with the EV, the range was good enough to get around and there were enough charging stations not to worry, you could also charge it at home. There were no issues for us. A lot own EVs here in the USA and it works well enough as long as you map out the spots to charge it at, then you'll be fine. The hilarious part is Trump wants to ban electrical vehicles even though Musk is one of his biggest supporters  When we do driving holidays we typically do 300 miles between stops. To have to break that with a long wait to get a public charger and then wait while it charges and then have same grief at each end stop would change a holiday into a nightmare. Certainly would not wish to endure that travelling through Europe. When I was working I would often drive 400 miles in 24 hours, even worse with an EV That's the endurance of a long-range lorry driver doing 300 miles between stops, how did you manage to stay awake for that long? Most people don't manage that and few would want to, can't blame them. The fast charging EVs and chargers take 20 mins for it to charge fully now, that's not too bad, so if charged before you leave home (assuming the 150 mile battery life is correct) then you get 150mi - stop/charge for 20m - another 150mi - one more charge for 20m - then you can cover the last 100mi (assuming you're doing 400mi). It's not that bad in reality, it often takes 10 minutes to fuel your car and pay at any petrol station I've been to either here or in England, so it's only 10 minutes more. That's not the end of the world. |
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
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Post by Steve on Jul 22, 2024 21:58:20 GMT
200 miles late evening to get to destination, stay over in hotel then drive to meetings and then drive home again late afternoon. It's easy.
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