borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 5, 2024 13:18:00 GMT
BBCIOW, Starmer is no more popular than Corbyn, except Corbyn was shafted by his own MPs Bear in mind, I'm not a fan of Corbyn's politics in any way, shape or form either
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 5, 2024 21:13:20 GMT
Weird isn't it. Boris got a massive majority to 'get Brexit done' on the back of an election where most votes were for pro EU parties and now Starmer has got an even more massive majority for significant changes when nearly 2/3 of the votes were against such.
But this is the daft system the UK electorate overwhelmingly backed in a fair referendum in 2011.
'No one ever got poor underestimating the . . . . . '
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Saint
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Post by Saint on Jul 5, 2024 22:26:17 GMT
Weird isn't it. Boris got a massive majority to 'get Brexit done' on the back of an election where most votes were for pro EU parties and now Starmer has got an even more massive majority for significant changes when nearly 2/3 of the votes were against such. But this is the daft system the UK electorate overwhelmingly backed in a fair referendum in 2011. 'No one ever got poor underestimating the . . . . . ' Yeah, I was thinking that myself.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 5, 2024 22:37:47 GMT
The problem is that a proportional system = Italy, Israel or even Germany in the very bad old days too...
How many more seats would Reform UK have had?
I can't work out whether PR, FPTP, or anything else is better or worse, who even knows anymore?
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 5, 2024 22:45:00 GMT
Single transferable vote (sometimes called AV) would be my choice
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Post by montegriffo on Jul 7, 2024 12:12:35 GMT
The problem is that a proportional system = Italy, Israel or even Germany in the very bad old days too... How many more seats would Reform UK have had? I can't work out whether PR, FPTP, or anything else is better or worse, who even knows anymore? People would have voted differently under PR. One thing I've never understood about PR. How do you allocate the seats? In all but 5 constituencies the winners were not Reform. How do you make a majority/winning Lab/Con seat accept a Reform candidate as their MP? You'd have to change the whole Parliamentary system and do away with local MPs.
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Post by dappy on Jul 7, 2024 13:22:49 GMT
You would probably go to a EU election super constituency with say seven MPs per constituency.
Or you have two classes of MP - constituency one’s and non constituency top ups.
No system is perfect but They seem to find a way in other countries.
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Post by montegriffo on Jul 7, 2024 14:15:15 GMT
Talking of other countries, how do you avoid the political stalemate and endless coalitions?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2024 19:09:59 GMT
The problem is that a proportional system = Italy, Israel or even Germany in the very bad old days too... How many more seats would Reform UK have had? I can't work out whether PR, FPTP, or anything else is better or worse, who even knows anymore? People would have voted differently under PR. One thing I've never understood about PR. How do you allocate the seats? In all but 5 constituencies the winners were not Reform. How do you make a majority/winning Lab/Con seat accept a Reform candidate as their MP? You'd have to change the whole Parliamentary system and do away with local MPs. You have half as many seats with two MPs per seat, one of which is always the candidate who got the most votes, the other being an MP from another party where their party did best without actually winning, starting with the party with the most votes and working down, and used to make the result proportional. Best of FPTP whilst also enacting PR yet retaining the constituency link as well. Germany I believe has something similar to this.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2024 19:11:55 GMT
Talking of other countries, how do you avoid the political stalemate and endless coalitions? Talking of our own, not voting Conservative would be a start if the last 14 years are anything to go by.
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Post by montegriffo on Jul 7, 2024 19:12:55 GMT
People would have voted differently under PR. One thing I've never understood about PR. How do you allocate the seats? In all but 5 constituencies the winners were not Reform. How do you make a majority/winning Lab/Con seat accept a Reform candidate as their MP? You'd have to change the whole Parliamentary system and do away with local MPs. You have half as many seats with two MPs per seat, one of which is always the candidate who got the most votes, the other being an MP from another party where their party did best without actually winning, starting with the party with the most votes and working down, and used to make the result proportional. Best of FPTP whilst also enacting PR yet retaining the constituency link as well. Germany I believe has something similar to this. So who runs the constituency?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2024 19:21:39 GMT
You have half as many seats with two MPs per seat, one of which is always the candidate who got the most votes, the other being an MP from another party where their party did best without actually winning, starting with the party with the most votes and working down, and used to make the result proportional. Best of FPTP whilst also enacting PR yet retaining the constituency link as well. Germany I believe has something similar to this. So who runs the constituency? An MP doesnt run a constituency. He represents it. The council runs it. There is no reason on earth why a constituency cannot be represented by more than one person. It even has its advantages. If the Tories gain the most votes and get one of the MPs, if you don't think a Tory will be interested in your problem you will have another alternative to approach. Competition as to who can best serve local constituents might also be a good thing. You could have a situation where the Tory MP looks out for the interests of landlords and home owners, whilst the other one - a Green for example - champions tenants. There is far more positive than negative in this, though such a change would be scary for those afraid of change I admit. And of course no system is ever going to be perfect, but the lack of perfection in any alternatives should not be used as an excuse for sticking to the indefensible system we have now.
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Post by totheleft on Jul 7, 2024 19:40:44 GMT
So who runs the constituency? An MP doesnt run a constituency. He represents it. The council runs it. There is no reason on earth why a constituency cannot be represented by more than one person. It even has its advantages. If the Tories gain the most votes and get one of the MPs, if you don't think a Tory will be interested in your problem you will have another alternative to approach. Competition as to who can best serve local constituents might also be a good thing. You could have a situation where the Tory MP looks out for the interests of landlords and home owners, whilst the other one - a Green for example - champions tenants. There is far more positive than negative in this, though such a change would be scary for those afraid of change I admit. And of course no system is ever going to be perfect, but the lack of perfection in any alternatives should not be used as an excuse for sticking to the indefensible system we have now. I understand what your saying Could you imagine the Anger of Farage if the muslim voters got more pm in the HOC. Don't think the Clown realise what hes wishing for
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 8, 2024 21:54:45 GMT
Farage knows that it would benefit them more than any other party, so he fully does know what he's wishing for and wants it, go and look up how many seats they'd get under that system And that's why I oppose it. It leads to Israel's far right extremists in coalition in power for decades FPTP is wrong too Read that Monbiot article I linked here for possible alternatives - ukopenpolitical.freeforums.net/thread/228/pantomime-season-monbiot
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 9, 2024 9:22:29 GMT
Which is why Single Transferable Vote/AV is the best way
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