Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 6, 2024 23:50:25 GMT
And that's the ones I was referring to
Northern Rock failed in September 2007 starting the worldwide bank runs
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Post by Zany on Jul 7, 2024 6:29:50 GMT
And that's the ones I was referring to Northern Rock failed in September 2007 starting the worldwide bank runs Northern rock does not explain your logic that Lloyds had to get into the subprime market or go bankrupt. Fact is they were lending far more money than usual, it was greed. Northern rock was a sign, not a cause.
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Post by vinny on Jul 7, 2024 6:55:31 GMT
We crashed out of the ERM in 1992. In the aftermath Norman Lamont was replaced with Kenneth Clarke. By 1994 we were out of recession, by 1997 the economy had returned to surplus. Gordon Brown followed Ken Clarke's spending limits for the first term, kept running a surplus and we dodged recession despite outside economic pressures from the USA and from Japan in particular which both went into recession as part of a most of the world recession. It was when he stopped following Ken Clarke's strategy that the deficit grew and we left ourselves vulnerable to outside economic pressures. But the NHS was still a mess alongside much else. You could make the same comparison with today and pretend that the reduction in inflation and a return to growth shows the Tories fixed the economy in 2024 before Labour took over, but we all know the reality is very different. I didn't mention the NHS. But, seeing as you did: Getting the NHS in shocking debt, filling middle management with diversity wonks, infertility treatment for lesbians, free boob jobs for men, didn't go well in the long term.
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Post by vinny on Jul 7, 2024 6:58:19 GMT
I suggest you look at the timeline UK mortgage defaults were rising long before the USA had problems. And the UK went into recession before the USA Vince Cable warned about it before everything went pear shaped. Brown didn't listen.
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Post by Zany on Jul 7, 2024 8:09:06 GMT
But the NHS was still a mess alongside much else. You could make the same comparison with today and pretend that the reduction in inflation and a return to growth shows the Tories fixed the economy in 2024 before Labour took over, but we all know the reality is very different. I didn't mention the NHS. But, seeing as you did: Getting the NHS in shocking debt, filling middle management with diversity wonks, infertility treatment for lesbians, free boob jobs for men, didn't go well in the long term. Would you like to say why that debt was necessary? Do you really think management with diversity wonks, infertility treatment for lesbians, free boob jobs for men. was a major cost to the NHS. This stuff got cheered on the other site. Here I'd like to see your evidence.
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Post by Zany on Jul 7, 2024 8:10:16 GMT
I suggest you look at the timeline UK mortgage defaults were rising long before the USA had problems. And the UK went into recession before the USA Vince Cable warned about it before everything went pear shaped. Brown didn't listen. Again you repeat this without saying what he was supposed to do about it.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 7, 2024 8:19:26 GMT
The Labour Party could have stuck to reasonable spending rules, even if they did slightly break them at times, they didn't slightly break them. We know Brown allowed the housing market to become overheated and he didn't introduce good enough legislation to reign in the banks; he allowed a loosely regulated financial sector to come crashing down. They embraced Thatcherist economics and it backfired spectacularly, the Tories were even worse on that score
The Labour Party were bankrolled by Big Banks and it cost the country dearly, Brown wasn't responsible for what happened in the USA or elsewhere and the contagion spread but the UK could have limited itself from the fallout by regulating its own markets and working to cut off the contagion before it could spread, instead they embraced open markets and loose regulation
Oh and a lot of Lab led councils invested heavily with Landsbanki which led to large shortfalls of money for years to come
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Post by Zany on Jul 7, 2024 8:25:58 GMT
The Labour Party could have stuck to reasonable spending rules, even if they did slightly break them at times, they didn't slightly break them. We know Brown allowed the housing market to become overheated and he didn't introduce good enough legislation to reign in the banks; he allowed a loosely regulated financial sector to come crashing down. They embraced Thatcherist economics and it backfired spectacularly, the Tories were even worse on that score The Labour Party were bankrolled by Big Banks and it cost the country dearly, Brown wasn't responsible for what happened in the USA or elsewhere and the contagion spread but the UK could have limited itself from the fallout by regulating its own markets and working to cut off the contagion before it could spread, instead they embraced open markets and loose regulation Oh and a lot of Lab led councils invested heavily with Landsbanki which led to large shortfalls of money for years to come I repeat. The big banks were international, control of their spending in the UK had no effect of their lending in the States. This had to be an international agreement, which only happened after the event. Brown bank rolled the banks after the crash, do you think he should have let them fail? Many councils invested money in get rich schemes. I would like that recklessness stopped completely.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 7, 2024 8:37:26 GMT
Yes he should have let them fail, Iceland did and they are still well off, they suffered for it but at least they did the right thing (morally)
No one said Brown was responsible for international banking, are you saying the UK couldn't have limited itself from the contagion with sensible rules?
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Post by Zany on Jul 7, 2024 9:18:24 GMT
Yes he should have let them fail, Iceland did and they are still well off, they suffered for it but at least they did the right thing (morally) No one said Brown was responsible for international banking, are you saying the UK couldn't have limited itself from the contagion with sensible rules? That's a big risk. A much larger part of our economy relies on banking. Personally I am happy with the measures the world took to stop this happening again.
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borgr0
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Post by borgr0 on Jul 7, 2024 9:24:48 GMT
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Jul 7, 2024 11:37:50 GMT
And that's the ones I was referring to Northern Rock failed in September 2007 starting the worldwide bank runs Northern rock does not explain your logic that Lloyds had to get into the subprime market or go bankrupt. Fact is they were lending far more money than usual, it was greed. Northern rock was a sign, not a cause. Of course Northern Rock was a sign but the fact is that the signs of underlying flaws appeared in the UK at same time or earlier than in the USA so were not triggered by the USA Surely this is all nothing to do with the commonwealth. Split it out?
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Post by Zany on Jul 7, 2024 12:51:31 GMT
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Post by patman post on Jul 7, 2024 14:29:46 GMT
Despite in many cases, tariffs, exports to the Commonwealth in 2022 were worth £83 billion, and imports from it, were worth £74 billion. According to the Australian diplomat and former High Commissioner to the United Kingdom Alexander Downer, FTAs normally triple the trade between nations.
If Downer's theory is correct, then development of the Commonwealth into an FTA could potentially result in that £83 billion becoming £249 billion a year. At any rate, development of the Commonwealth towards becoming an FTA could lift millions of people out of poverty and would help steer them diplomatically away from dictatorships.
Worth trying?
No Well not unless you can name a Commonwealth country that has similar labour costs to ours. Otherwise you're just arguing for sending British jobs overseas. As for that trebling that's because FTAs are usually between adjacent countries and guess what the significant commonwealth countries aren't. There's a few (eg, Australia, Bermuda, Canada, Cayman Island, New Zealand, Singapore) that have similar GDP to the UK — not the same as labour costs, but an indicator.
For over a decade there have been suggestions that the UK should divert a portion of its foreign aid into investment into helping Commonwealth countries produce goods the UK and others need. These would likely be mostly agricultural goods like food and animal feed, which the UK already import...
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Post by vinny on Jul 7, 2024 14:36:26 GMT
Vince Cable warned about it before everything went pear shaped. Brown didn't listen. Again you repeat this without saying what he was supposed to do about it. Putting up interest rates to encourage saving would have helped. And remember the Tax Exempt Special Savings Account? The Personal Equity Plan? Gordon Brown replaced those with rubbish ISAs and raided pension plans destroying most savings options pushing investors to buy bricks and mortar instead. The housing market overheated.
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