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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 6:15:44 GMT
YES! But by preventing the conversation you play into a future Hitlers hands. Instead of shutting down the likes of Orac with your "It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. How about listening to their concerns and reasoning it out with them Just a thought. Is that not what I've done? How have I shut anyone down? Yes you have attempted to. Phrases like "its all just racial stereotyping" and "It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. Are designed to do just that. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 6:51:23 GMT
Zany I invited Orac to outline his concerns in this very thread and just got a stream of personal abuse in return. If he fails to outline what his concerns are, how do you suggest I listen to them? Sorry Dappy, my words were aimed at a broader spectrum than just Orac. Across Europe to desire to stamp out racism has accidentally gagged people who have what they feel are genuine concerns about immigration. These concerns are often muddled, mixing illegal migration, asylum and immigration. With multiculturalism, local changes, language and feeling of having no say. This muddling leads to concepts such as lack of housing, waiting lists and even the state of the roads blamed on foreigners. I feel this is because instead of dealing with each issue individually we lump all complaints into "Well that's racist" Have you ever considered what these complainants mean by words such as Woke? Rather than just dismissing them as bigots? I probably have a larger exposure to this world than you as I am a funnel for 136 staff and 750,000 customers. It has got daft, we had a complaint by a woman who was disgusted that we were giving lynched black man toys to children. She thought the Red green blue and yellow ones were ok, but the black ones were clearly a nod to the Klu Klux Klan. (Something like this below), as a business you can't just laugh, for if something like this goes viral people like you jump straight on the band wagon, its scary how much it feels like you could be cancelled for something so stupid.  |
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Post by dappy on Jul 1, 2024 8:30:24 GMT
Zany, I think we agree on more than you realise.
I agree that those who are scared of the effects of immigration should be engaged with not ignored and ridiculed.
I also agree and stated earlier in the thread that there are idiots on both sides taking extreme positions. Your example of the sweets is one silly example (although they are pretty weird sweets!)
I do think you need to be a little bit careful with language - so instead of saying Indians are dismissive to staff you would be better saying in my experience some Indians can be dismissive to staff. Same point less confrontational. Better still is to balance criticism with praise - some Indians, while otherwise being generally very reliable customers can be a bit dismissive to staff. That applies by the way to all generalized comments about any group of people not just groups based on race.
Engagement though does need willing from both sides and it was noticeable when I asked Orac to explain the point you raised about loss of culture, he chose instead to resort to personal abuse rather than engagement. Why is that? Well perhaps because the more articulate people from that end of the spectrum are using such comments to scare people into silos controlled by them. Those more articulate people should be called out but not in a way that pushes away the people influenced by them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 8:50:51 GMT
The Reform manifesto contract should read "..."
Or "I'll do whatever seems right at the time". And like all parties' manifestos, that would be the only true manifesto for these excellent politicians.
Or better still "I will sellout to the Tories at the first given opportunity and join in a coalition with them"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 9:01:33 GMT
Its interesting why Reform attracts so many racists etc. Farage seems genuinely annoyed by the stuff that keeps happening. So is Farage really a racist playing down his true thoughts on people from certain other continents or is his party against further immigration and that just happens to be the nearest thing to a party the racists can support. In the words of our beloved Red Rackham. Its not racist to want immigration stopped. Does the endless accusation of racism for even mentioning someone's country of origin if they aren't white and the penalising anyone who should accidentally use the term 'coloured' 'black' 'person of colour' instead of this weeks acceptable description. Lead many to feel they are nearer Farage than they otherwise would be. Orac raised an interesting point on here. When he suggested that if you bring enough people from different culture (one you don't admire) into this country, don't you risk losing your own culture. What was interesting was not so much Orac's particular view, but rather the fact that everyone immediately pulled out all the stops to distance themselves from the idea to the point where it was difficult to have the idea properly discussed at all. My fear is that by being too prissy we end up driving more and more into the arms of the fascists. I mean did the Nazis realise they were Nazis when they elected Hitler. I'm reminded of this sketch by Mitchell and Web. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oYRR's sig: "IT IS NOT RACIST TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT IMMIGRATION", there's an old meme on the internet that says caps lock is cruise control for cool The Nazis were openly attacking people in the street in pitch battles in Berlin and other cities, so I'm pretty sure people knew what was going on or had a good idea of it, it was hard to ignore. They knew they hated the Jews and blamed them for everything, there's no avoiding that fact The random rather nasty lashing out on this thread by a certain member seems to sum up many people's arguments Although that said, I am pretty sick of woke gibberish by a certain segment and constant accusations of racism, but it's the Tories who are pushing a lot of that right now which to me is ironic in the extreme, given their policies - in particular on Rwanda and deportation |
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 9:37:28 GMT
Yes we do, we're finessing. They aren't sweets they are toys you stretch them and fire them at your windows and they stick and then flip end over end down the glass I do get your point and I have done this when raising this in the past. We find Indians are the most grateful if an event goes well and recommend like crazy! But I was making a different point about how stiffled people feel in speaking about this stuff, that you have to mitigate every down side with a good one is an indicator of this. Imagine you couldn't complain BMW drivers cut you up without every time having to say, but they do keep their cars clean. And ofcourse I mean tend to cut you up. And not all BMW drivers are like this. When we make such comments we assume the reader knows we don't mean every BMW driver and that they have no good points. Difficult to speak on his/her behalf, but I think its because of the damage already done as I point out in this thread. Too many times people like Mags have said what they consider examples (Such as my whole street stinks of curry) only to face ridicule and accusation. Then drown in examples of bad smells white people make. They are basically either tired or scared to open up. Incidentally we have curry house opened up next to my offices and it stinks the place out.  I'm not suggesting we stop dirty foreigners making curry, but that we do allow people a bit of a moan without the "Here we go again" attitude. The real racists play on these small differences but then add false evidence such as carefully picked crime figures or standards in the country of origin. The reason they find traction is because people like Red Rackham fester on the small annoyances they are not allowed to utter. And the wokeism that has football managers resign because they said a lot of their coloured players face racism. (I think you'll find the words you should use this month are "people of colour") As a "person of white" I think this has gone too far now. |
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Post by montegriffo on Jul 1, 2024 10:00:51 GMT
Is that not what I've done? How have I shut anyone down? Yes you have attempted to. Phrases like "its all just racial stereotyping" and "It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. Are designed to do just that. Right, so what you are saying is that I shouldn't point out bigotry when I see it. If I'm honest, I think it's much more likely that we'll end up with more bigots in society if we stay silent. Sure, discuss the problems that come with too much immigration but if you start giving it that Nazi 'blood and soil' shit about our culture being under threat I'm going to call you out on it. |
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Post by Steve on Jul 1, 2024 10:28:38 GMT
Is that not what I've done? How have I shut anyone down? Yes you have attempted to. Phrases like "its all just racial stereotyping" and "It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. Are designed to do just that. Nah. They're just robust challenge to views not shutting people down. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 10:40:46 GMT
Yes you have attempted to. Phrases like "its all just racial stereotyping" and "It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. Are designed to do just that. Right, so what you are saying is that I shouldn't point out bigotry when I see it. . Have you read the thread. I go into quite some detail about my feelings and concerns. This cannot be distilled into "Right, so what you are saying is that I shouldn't point out bigotry when I see it." IMO we have been trying that for a decade now and the result is Reform and Marine Le Pen. But then the opposite to shutting people down as bigots is not to remain silent. There is an ocean of area between the two. Feel free to call out anyone saying the Nazis were good guys. If you were triggered by my words then you missed the point by about a solar system. What I was saying is that those who at first supported Hitler in some of the things he was saying about their suppression and being blamed for WW1 did not envisage the guy they were to elect would force a second war and start exterminating his opposition and then whole races of people. They got sucked in because they felt unheard. |
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 10:41:20 GMT
Yes you have attempted to. Phrases like "its all just racial stereotyping" and "It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. Are designed to do just that. Nah. They're just robust challenge to views not shutting people down. I've explained as well as I can. |
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Post by dappy on Jul 1, 2024 10:47:09 GMT
Yes we do, we're finessing. They aren't sweets they are toys you stretch them and fire them at your windows and they stick and then flip end over end down the glass I do get your point and I have done this when raising this in the past. We find Indians are the most grateful if an event goes well and recommend like crazy! But I was making a different point about how stiffled people feel in speaking about this stuff, that you have to mitigate every down side with a good one is an indicator of this. Imagine you couldn't complain BMW drivers cut you up without every time having to say, but they do keep their cars clean. And ofcourse I mean tend to cut you up. And not all BMW drivers are like this. When we make such comments we assume the reader knows we don't mean every BMW driver and that they have no good points. Difficult to speak on his/her behalf, but I think its because of the damage already done as I point out in this thread. Too many times people like Mags have said what they consider examples (Such as my whole street stinks of curry) only to face ridicule and accusation. Then drown in examples of bad smells white people make. They are basically either tired or scared to open up. Incidentally we have curry house opened up next to my offices and it stinks the place out. I'm not suggesting we stop dirty foreigners making curry, but that we do allow people a bit of a moan without the "Here we go again" attitude. The real racists play on these small differences but then add false evidence such as carefully picked crime figures or standards in the country of origin. The reason they find traction is because people like Red Rackham fester on the small annoyances they are not allowed to utter. And the wokeism that has football managers resign because they said a lot of their coloured players face racism. (I think you'll find the words you should use this month are "people of colour") As a "person of white" I think this has gone too far now. You should qualify it for BMW drivers too - that was my point. It may be clear to you you don’t mean all BMW drivers - I am afraid others take you more literally. It also softens criticism and makes it more likely that people will accept criticism if you soften it with a bit a praise too. Nothing to do with race just good people management. I largely agree with the excesses. They come from both sides. They are annoying and counterproductive. I don’t recognise your manager example (although it may be valid) but here’s a couple of my own. My professional team had a reasonably well known player Bayo Akinfenwa. Bayo was an outstanding player, very powerful but very slow. Real hero to all us fans. An opposing manager referred to him as a water buffalo. Water Buffalo are very powerful and very slow. They apparently also have black skin (/fur). It became a race incident. I don’t think it was (although given that it was Joey Barton I may be wrong). I watch my local non league team. Most of the opposition players have white skin. Occasionally one has black skin. I don’t think it is racist to say as an identifier - the black lad is a bit good if used in that context anymore than saying the tall lad or the ginger lad. People round me sometimes do get the terminology wrong referring to the “coloured lad”. That’s not racist either as long as not meant in a derogatory way. Obvs if they used other words it may well be. Famously John Terry was sanctioned for calling Anton Ferdinand a f@@king black c@@t. Apparently it would have been fine to call him a f@@king c@@t but “black” was unacceptable. I don’t accept that either. I think we are close to full agreement? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 10:57:49 GMT
It's hilarious to me that the Tories are "calling out racism" from Labour.
That's how you know this calling out racism stuff is no longer actually about calling out real racism, but often a cover for more of the same
Which isn't to say real racism shouldn't be called out, especially in Reform UK's case
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Post by montegriffo on Jul 1, 2024 10:57:52 GMT
Right, so what you are saying is that I shouldn't point out bigotry when I see it. . Have you read the thread. I go into quite some detail about my feelings and concerns. This cannot be distilled into "Right, so what you are saying is that I shouldn't point out bigotry when I see it." IMO we have been trying that for a decade now and the result is Reform and Marine Le Pen. But then the opposite to shutting people down as bigots is not to remain silent. There is an ocean of area between the two. Feel free to call out anyone saying the Nazis were good guys. If you were triggered by my words then you missed the point by about a solar system. What I was saying is that those who at first supported Hitler in some of the things he was saying about their suppression and being blamed for WW1 did not envisage the guy they were to elect would force a second war and start exterminating his opposition and then whole races of people. They got sucked in because they felt unheard. What led to the rise of the Nazis was unchallenged narratives about 'Blood and Soil' and German culture being under threat from 'outside' forces. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2024 11:05:41 GMT
But it was challenged, in the streets violently with many deaths between Communist KPD and NSDAP fighting each other with a mini civil war type scenario.
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Post by Zany on Jul 1, 2024 11:06:43 GMT
Have you read the thread. I go into quite some detail about my feelings and concerns. This cannot be distilled into "Right, so what you are saying is that I shouldn't point out bigotry when I see it." IMO we have been trying that for a decade now and the result is Reform and Marine Le Pen. But then the opposite to shutting people down as bigots is not to remain silent. There is an ocean of area between the two. Feel free to call out anyone saying the Nazis were good guys. If you were triggered by my words then you missed the point by about a solar system. What I was saying is that those who at first supported Hitler in some of the things he was saying about their suppression and being blamed for WW1 did not envisage the guy they were to elect would force a second war and start exterminating his opposition and then whole races of people. They got sucked in because they felt unheard. What led to the rise of the Nazis was unchallenged narratives about 'Blood and Soil' and German culture being under threat from 'outside' forces. Yes there was nothing before that point was there. Hitler wasn't imprisoned, didn't write Mein Kampf. France didn't seize the industrial Rhine area in lieu of war reparations. It all started with Blood and soil. Have you any idea why Germany received so much help post WW2? More help the Britain? |
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