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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 15:34:37 GMT
It’s quite an important distinction, Zany. I genuinely think you should. Let’s accept your assertion that people of Indian origin tend to have a more arrogant attitude towards people who serve, (whether that remains true I have no view on). In what way is that “losing our culture” surely it has no relevance to the way you choose to behave. It is certainly something my staff in some towns have suffered, its alien in the Uk to be berated for not running over to open the door for a customer. How it might be equated to losing our culture only applies to those who live in such areas where its becoming frequent, where their bosses (people like me) submit to the requirements of their customers to the detriment of their staff, but have no choice, for to challenge the attitude is immediately assumed to have racist roots and could destroy a whole business. What percentage of your Indian customers have complained to you about disrespectful servers,Zany? I find it a tad difficult to believe that it is a large number. With respect if this is the worst example of how we are “losing our culture”, sorry it all feels a little trivial. |
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 15:42:48 GMT
Dear oh dear. Monte said: Northerners talk funny and people from Devon put the cream and jam on their scones in the wrong order. Note you didn't say. Do the people talk with funny in Pakistan.  Of course. Maybe next time I'll put a in there. My point was that none of us feel comfortable even making a simple joke about Pakistani accent when speaking English, we are so terrified of being thought racist. Even though we be the most open minded and welcoming of souls who fight against racism. Everyone is super sensitive to anything that could be construed as racist and once branded no amount of explanation or apology for misunderstanding matters. |
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 15:52:20 GMT
It is certainly something my staff in some towns have suffered, its alien in the Uk to be berated for not running over to open the door for a customer. How it might be equated to losing our culture only applies to those who live in such areas where its becoming frequent, where their bosses (people like me) submit to the requirements of their customers to the detriment of their staff, but have no choice, for to challenge the attitude is immediately assumed to have racist roots and could destroy a whole business. What percentage of your Indian customers have complained to you about disrespectful servers,Zany? I find it a tad difficult to believe that it is a large number. With respect if this is the worst example of how we are “losing our culture”, sorry it all feels a little trivial. A few when we first opened but not now as we have adjusted to their requirements, but fact is they do expect you not to answer back and to do as instructed. The attitude of complainants changes completely when they speak to me as the MD. I deserve respect. That you find it difficult to believe is more about your admirable desire to be magnanimous about people. And had I not experienced it I would have probably scoffed to. But lets keep it in proportion its not life changing or even a big deal, its me pointing out a cultural difference. I don't know how it might magnify if we had a majority of Indians living here. There are many thousands in India who still believe in the caste system. Caste inequalities have not completely disappeared from India. Even today most people marry within their own caste or tribe. Despite constitutional prohibition untouchability has not ended completely. Education is not easily available to the so called low castes. Economic status is closely linked to the caste system. In modern India like in pre-independence India the poor are mostly the low castes while the rich are the high castes thereby showing that caste inequalities are still continuing in India. |
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 15:54:29 GMT
And can we please remember folks.
My point is about the difficulty even discussing the subject, not trying to prove the case.
I genuinely worry that if we deny discussion we persuade no one we are right and instead drive people into the arms of the intolerant and the bigots.
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Post by montegriffo on Jun 30, 2024 16:49:41 GMT
It is certainly something my staff in some towns have suffered, its alien in the Uk to be berated for not running over to open the door for a customer. How it might be equated to losing our culture only applies to those who live in such areas where its becoming frequent, where their bosses (people like me) submit to the requirements of their customers to the detriment of their staff, but have no choice, for to challenge the attitude is immediately assumed to have racist roots and could destroy a whole business. What percentage of your Indian customers have complained to you about disrespectful servers,Zany? I find it a tad difficult to believe that it is a large number. With respect if this is the worst example of how we are “losing our culture”, sorry it all feels a little trivial. It's the thin end of the wedge Dappy. Today it's expecting to have the door opened for you, tomorrow it's expecting your staff to be genitally mutilated. |
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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 16:53:54 GMT
You misunderstand me Zany. I am not denying that a handful of the public a few years ago have acted like dickheads just that it seems a very minor issue to be a major plank of a claim that we are “losing our culture”.
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 18:04:02 GMT
What percentage of your Indian customers have complained to you about disrespectful servers,Zany? I find it a tad difficult to believe that it is a large number. With respect if this is the worst example of how we are “losing our culture”, sorry it all feels a little trivial. It's the thin end of the wedge Dappy. Today it's expecting to have the door opened for you, tomorrow it's expecting your staff to be genitally mutilated. Exactly. Soon we'll all be genitally mutilated servants |
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 18:10:52 GMT
You misunderstand me Zany. I am not denying that a handful of the public a few years ago have acted like dickheads just that it seems a very minor issue to be a major plank of a claim that we are “losing our culture”. Its a very poor example, but then its not meant to be an example at all. Its supposed to explain the idea that we need to be allowed to discuss these differences so they don't fester in the minds of those who fear change. People look different they behave a bit different, so they must be different. That's the thinking that needs airing, because if we don't then the racists get free reign to claim Muslims all want Sharia law and we're not allowed to object. |
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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 18:48:12 GMT
I kind of expected that when asked for an example and you finally came up with an example, you would have reached for your best example.
You are allowed to discuss differences Zany but language is important. If you have an issue with a handful of Indian customers, don’t claim that that issue is endemic to all Indian customers and perhaps also mention the good attributes that you have experienced from people of that origin. Otherwise you really are feeding the prejudices of those who struggle with people who look a bit different to themselves.
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Post by equivocal on Jun 30, 2024 18:48:42 GMT
You misunderstand me Zany. I am not denying that a handful of the public a few years ago have acted like dickheads just that it seems a very minor issue to be a major plank of a claim that we are “losing our culture”. Its a very poor example, but then its not meant to be an example at all. Its supposed to explain the idea that we need to be allowed to discuss these differences so they don't fester in the minds of those who fear change. People look different they behave a bit different, so they must be different. That's the thinking that needs airing, because if we don't then the racists get free reign to claim Muslims all want Sharia law and we're not allowed to object. I think what you are saying is an echo of what Lord Parekh has been banging on about for years. link
He said people attacked multiculturalism without understanding what it meant. “They took it in a very crude way to mean that each culture is self-sufficient. It cannot be criticised by standards drawn from another culture and each culture therefore is sacrosanct and beyond criticism; therefore it has certain rights which the state should give it. Nobody in their right mind has ever advocated for this.”
Parekh, who has written extensively on rethinking multiculturalism, added: “What we mean by multiculturalism is that no culture is perfect. Every culture is defective, it has to learn from others and therefore we want to encourage dialogue between different cultures, where each can learn to be critical of itself and learn also from the treasures of other cultures. It is the process of mutual learning.”
Put another way, he accepts that various cultures (including our own) have flaws and there should be open criticism and mutual learning. As you say, if any criticism is taken as some kind of racial slur or stereotyping, then mutual learning becomes impossible.
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 19:52:13 GMT
I kind of expected that when asked for an example and you finally came up with an example, you would have reached for your best example. You are allowed to discuss differences Zany but language is important. If you have an issue with a handful of Indian customers, don’t claim that that issue is endemic to all Indian customers and perhaps also mention the good attributes that you have experienced from people of that origin. Otherwise you really are feeding the prejudices of those who struggle with people who look a bit different to themselves. I don't know why, I never espoused the idea of cultural differences in the first place. I went on to explain endlessly that I was discussing the inability to discuss any perceived differences. Yet still here you are doing just as I predicted. Accusing me of feeding the prejudices of those who struggle with people who look a bit different to themselves.I think you are incapable of seeing beyond this. Sadly you are not alone and thus it is you and those like you keen to show your holy credentials that drive the Red Rackhams of this world into the arms of the extreme right wing. Not me but you. |
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Post by montegriffo on Jun 30, 2024 20:44:19 GMT
It's the claim that immigration is damaging 'our' culture that I find to be so dangerous.
It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''.
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Post by Zany on Jun 30, 2024 21:03:37 GMT
It's the claim that immigration is damaging 'our' culture that I find to be so dangerous. It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. YES! But by preventing the conversation you play into a future Hitlers hands. Instead of shutting down the likes of Orac with your "It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. How about listening to their concerns and reasoning it out with them Just a thought. |
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Post by montegriffo on Jun 30, 2024 21:18:53 GMT
It's the claim that immigration is damaging 'our' culture that I find to be so dangerous. It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. YES! But by preventing the conversation you play into a future Hitlers hands. Instead of shutting down the likes of Orac with your "It's just a few beers and a tiki torch away from ''Jews will not replace us''. How about listening to their concerns and reasoning it out with them Just a thought. Is that not what I've done? How have I shut anyone down? |
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Post by dappy on Jun 30, 2024 22:10:21 GMT
Zany I invited Orac to outline his concerns in this very thread and just got a stream of personal abuse in return. If he fails to outline what his concerns are, how do you suggest I listen to them?
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