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Post by Zany on Apr 3, 2024 18:55:27 GMT
Its hardly a long post. . So more unemployed? Oh so simple. But my business is in entertainment. I need a lot of people for a short time. Damn public expect it from me, I'll speak to them In the meantime, my temporary staff seem quite happy and don't seem to want to be made to work 16 hours. Well lets hope I go bankrupt and save these poor souls. Its not unreasonable to ask people to work more than 16 hours a week full stop. I don't. In fact we wouldn't employ the lazy sods the job centre send because they don't want the work. You said it. Anyone who wants to work doesn't need the job centre to make them apply. Well you might have asked politely before shooting your mouth off, but how about a theatre putting on a play each Saturday. It needs 10 people for the play which lasts 2.5 hours plus clearing up. Should those cruel bosses restructure the play so 4 people can do it over 16 hours. I'm sure the audience would understand. Oh yes that would definitely work in my business. Or (Just an idea) I could employ people who ask me for a job and let them decide for themselves. Many of our temporary staff are. But I don't turn down someone on the basis that you think they should get a better job. Are you suggesting I turn down people who should get more hours? Thank you. Bet we wouldn't. Too late. . And didn't bother to find out first. Thankfully you and Mr Corbyn did not get elected, but thank you for affirming my fears.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2024 20:03:53 GMT
You say more unemployed but I say fewer under-employed.
And if you are going to take my disagreeing with you personally it is wiser for us to refrain from debating this issue.
Corbyn is not going to be in charge obviously. Doesnt change my opinions one single iota. As far as I know Starmer still has the policy of abolishing zero hours but he will be far more amenable to your tale of woe at your inability to provide your employees with a decent living unless they get other jobs somewhere else.
Once upon a time though the only people who ever accepted such jobs were the ones who wanted to. Now people who cannot afford to live on it are liable to be forced into it without escaping the jobcentre breathing down their neck. This chronic insecurity is playing its part in both mass poverty and chronic mental ill health, both costing taxpayers a fortune.
And it has already been found out that we fundamentally disagree. Do you for a single second think that I will ever change your mind? Of course you dont but you cling to the illusion that you might change mine, that I will come to view employing someone for ten hours a week and expecting the welfare system to do the rest is economically reasonable. You are never going to make me think that anymore than I will change your mind. That is already clear by our exchange so far.
But since you are apparently incapable of not taking it personally, that is all I am going to say to you on the subject and will not be responding to you further on this matter, except perhaps with the briefest of responses to any provocative comments that cannot go unanswered. I have no wish to fuel personal animosity just because you disagree with me.
So lets just agree to differ at this point. There are many other things we can agree on or debate reasonably if we disagree because neither of us has skin in the game. This is not one of them.
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Post by Zany on Apr 3, 2024 20:09:56 GMT
You say more unemployed but I say fewer under-employed. Your comments were clearly and deliberately personal. So I agree. With you anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2024 21:58:42 GMT
You say more unemployed but I say fewer under-employed. Your comments were clearly and deliberately personal. So I agree. With you anyway. My comments were only personal in the sense that they objected to circumstances you are complicit in and thus took on board your personal circumstances. You might well have some valid point based on your business circumstances, but any attempt by me to challenge you on them inevitably steps on personal matters which you presume to be a deliberate attempt to rile you. It is my reluctance to be complicit in creating ill will between us that makes me want to desist. I just felt I had to clarify that point because you are seeing malicious intent where there is none. My robust and excessively verbose manner might have made it seem that way, for which I apologise, but I am not a troll of the kind that exists at the other place. You are someone I respect around here if you must know which is why I do not want to fall out with you on this matter. I can see it is a potentially sore point because it is yiour livelihood you feel to be at stake If we were to continue debating on this matter, rather than digging our heels in, a more fruitful exchange would be for you on the one hand to try and imagine how zero hours bans legislation could be implemented in ways that work for you, and me on the other hand to do the same. And we might end up meeting somewhere in the middle. But if we cannot do that we had best leave the issue alone. I certainly intend to do so for today at least. The avoidance of ill will between us matters more to me than trying to win the argument.
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Post by Zany on Apr 3, 2024 22:21:40 GMT
My comments were only personal in the sense that they objected to circumstances you are complicit in and thus took on board your personal circumstances. You might well have some valid point based on your business circumstances, but any attempt by me to challenge you on them inevitably steps on personal matters which you presume to be a deliberate attempt to rile you. It is my reluctance to be complicit in creating ill will between us that makes me want to desist. I just felt I had to clarify that point because you are seeing malicious intent where there is none. My robust and excessively verbose manner might have made it seem that way, for which I apologise, but I am not a troll of the kind that exists at the other place. You are someone I respect around here if you must know which is why I do not want to fall out with you on this matter. I can see it is a potentially sore point because it is yiour livelihood you feel to be at stake If we were to continue debating on this matter, rather than digging our heels in, a more fruitful exchange would be for you on the one hand to try and imagine how zero hours bans legislation could be implemented in ways that work for you, and me on the other hand to do the same. And we might end up meeting somewhere in the middle. But if we cannot do that we had best leave the issue alone. I certainly intend to do so for today at least. The avoidance of ill will between us matters more to me than trying to win the argument. I have never thought you a troll, but you were both rude and personal, before you discussed the facts or learned the circumstances. You then ignored my examples under the guise of my post being too long. It is fine to disagree, but you know you went much further than that. Please address my examples to show you have now understood them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2024 0:12:11 GMT
Are you going to accept my apology or not? And it was not I who bought your personal circumstances up to use as examples. You did that, to which I responded robustly which you saw as rudeness because I was talking about you and your own circumstances which you yourself chose to invoke.
It is too late in the day to respond to your examples point by point now, having just come back online after watching the telly. And am working the next four days so might not get around to it for a while.
I have a fault in that when I see a post with many points in it, I tend to respond to only a few of them otherwise my own excessive verbosity would result in a response so long that no one will ever read it.
Some of your examples I have already responded to though. I have suggested that if you only have 10 hours of work going you offer it as extra hourss to existing employees or take on someone who only needs ten hours and is not dependent for the rest upon welfare. Maximising the number of jobs by offering fewer hours per job is just replacing unemployment with a vastly bigger problem of underemployment. So yes fewer jobs with better hours are better for working people. A job with so few hours that the welfare system forces you to look for an alternative is not really fit for purpose. So if ten hour jobs are replaced by a smaller number of 16 hour jobs, that is better for the workers. And the ones out of work can devote all their time to seeking a job.
You accused me of thinking all employers are awful. Which is a itself a rude slur because I don't. But there will always be a few who are. Thats just the way of the world.
That is all I have time for now. I have never learned how to multi-quote line by line on this type of forum which makes me trying to respond to dozens of points in the same post way too cumbersome. You would get more of your points responded to if you just hit me with a few per post.
Even on other boards where I knew how to multi-quote I always found the process time consuming.
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Post by Zany on Apr 4, 2024 5:10:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2024 9:26:42 GMT
My exact words were contained in this sentence..... I just felt I had to clarify that point because you are seeing malicious intent where there is none. My robust and excessively verbose manner might have made it seem that way, for which I apologise.I guess I am not the only one who sometimes speed reads long posts. lol
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Post by Zany on Apr 4, 2024 14:37:31 GMT
My exact words were contained in this sentence..... I just felt I had to clarify that point because you are seeing malicious intent where there is none. My robust and excessively verbose manner might have made it seem that way, for which I apologise.I guess I am not the only one who sometimes speed reads long posts. lol I did not see this as an apology, there was malicious intent. You said: And if you cannot afford to pay someone minimum wage for 16 hours because you only have ten hours of work available, then offer it as overtime to existing employees or pay fewer employees to do more hours. Millions should not have to be impoverished, the welfare system creaking at the seems to support them, because a few seek personal prosperity by only offering pitifully small hours to their employees in the interests of maximum flexibility for the employers bought by minimum security for the workers. A business model that relies on piss takingly small contracts is not fit for purpose. When it comes to employers prospering off the backs of offering pitiful terms and conditions re pay security, you yourself have skin in the game
All very personal and all very rude, but mostly all very ignorant. You made no attempt to understand the why's before you condemned with your pre-conceptions in a most disgusting way. All that said, I would much prefer you answered my points than apologised, that way I might stop you insulting other hard working employers. Q: How about a theatre putting on a play each Saturday. It needs 10 people for the play which lasts 2.5 hours plus clearing up. Q: A nightclub opening Friday and Saturday nights? Are the staff forced to work both nights so you can stop bosses offering "piss takingly small contracts" Q: My business is only open Saturday and Sunday day times (Because that's when my customers want my services) Should I sack all employees who don't want to work both days?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2024 21:05:56 GMT
Zany, the language I used, eg skin in the game, is common colloquial language fir someone having a vested interest in zero hour contracts as you do.
And whilst such contracts might suit some, from the perspective of someone who needs a wage they can live on they are piss takingly inadequate. It depends on whose perspective you are viewing this from. No one should be forced into such contracts and you yourself have pretty much said you wouldnt want anyone who is.
You interpret that as rudeness and malicious because because it impacts upon your livelihood, and see it as disgusting. Well if thats how you want to interpret it, I guess we aint friends. If you want to see malice because I oppose zero hour contracts that is your call. But it is not necessarily zero hour contracts themselves that is the problem. It is jobcentres forcing people who need financial security to accept them. And the fact that there are bad employers abusing them does not mean I am saying that you are one of them.
And as for the examples you gave of exceptions, they are all things which need to be looked at if any legislation is being drawn up, but banning most of them in most circumstances for that to be reasonable should be the default setting.
But since you think I am attacking and insulting you with malice because you are taking my arguments personally out of self interest, and disrespecting me yourself in the process, not least by calling me a liar, and repeatedly insinuating that I am some sort of Corbyn groupie just to have a dig, I refuse to discuss this matter further with you and request that you dont with me. I am not walking on eggshells just because the person I am debating with has a vested interest, and is rude and hostile because you insist upon taking it personally.
I cant be doing with the personal animosity because on this issue I am hitting a raw nerve. If I want that I will go back to the other forum.
One last thing, zero hours contracts never used to be anywhere near as widespread as they are now and I know of people forced to accept them. In the interests of a fair deal for working people we need to row back on them again.
You will never have your mind changed on such a matter you have a vested interest in yet expect to keep going at me until I change mine.
Nah, I'm done.
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Post by Zany on Apr 5, 2024 6:37:58 GMT
Zany, the language I used, eg skin in the game, is common colloquial language fir someone having a vested interest in zero hour contracts as you do. And whilst such contracts might suit some, from the perspective of someone who needs a wage they can live on they are piss takingly inadequate. It depends on whose perspective you are viewing this from. No one should be forced into such contracts and you yourself have pretty much said you wouldnt want anyone who is. You interpret that as rudeness and malicious because because it impacts upon your livelihood, and see it as disgusting. Well if thats how you want to interpret it, I guess we aint friends. If you want to see malice because I oppose zero hour contracts that is your call. But it is not necessarily zero hour contracts themselves that is the problem. It is jobcentres forcing people who need financial security to accept them. And the fact that there are bad employers abusing them does not mean I am saying that you are one of them. And as for the examples you gave of exceptions, they are all things which need to be looked at if any legislation is being drawn up, but banning most of them in most circumstances for that to be reasonable should be the default setting. But since you think I am attacking and insulting you with malice because you are taking my arguments personally out of self interest, and disrespecting me yourself in the process, not least by calling me a liar, and repeatedly insinuating that I am some sort of Corbyn groupie just to have a dig, I refuse to discuss this matter further with you and request that you dont with me. I am not walking on eggshells just because the person I am debating with has a vested interest, and is rude and hostile because you insist upon taking it personally. I cant be doing with the personal animosity because on this issue I am hitting a raw nerve. If I want that I will go back to the other forum. One last thing, zero hours contracts never used to be anywhere near as widespread as they are now and I know of people forced to accept them. In the interests of a fair deal for working people we need to row back on them again. You will never have your mind changed on such a matter you have a vested interest in yet expect to keep going at me until I change mine. Nah, I'm done. The reason I find it insulting is because you said in no uncertain terms that I don't care about either those who work for me or the workers in general. You switched from looking for a solution to blaming bosses in the blink of an eye. But I'm less interested in your view of how unfair it all is and more interested in the solutions. Simply telling employers they have to suck it up seems a very uninformed view especially if you have taken no time to understand the issues and gone even further in deliberately ignoring the examples I gave you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2024 21:32:40 GMT
I have no idea what the response to my last post was and do not intend to find out.
Due to wholly unnecessary animosity from someone with skin in the game on the zero hour contract issue, I have decided to block you.
I am not here for that kind of shit. I just dont need it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2024 10:16:59 GMT
I will say that when polling tested public opinion on abolishing zero hours contracts, their response was as follows.... "On the plan to ban zero-hours contracts, 71 per cent said they backed the move, while just 16 per cent said they were against it." The actual polling evidence containing the above can be found here, so no one has to take my word for it.... www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-manifesto-poll-voters-back-policies-jeremy-corbyn-latest-a7731536.htmlSo whatever self-interested exploiters of zero hours contracts might have to say in their own self interest, the vast majority of the public is against them.
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Post by Zany on Apr 6, 2024 12:06:13 GMT
I will say that when polling tested public opinion on abolishing zero hours contracts, their response was as follows.... "On the plan to ban zero-hours contracts, 71 per cent said they backed the move, while just 16 per cent said they were against it." The actual polling evidence containing the above can be found here, so no one has to take my word for it.... www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-manifesto-poll-voters-back-policies-jeremy-corbyn-latest-a7731536.htmlSo whatever self-interested exploiters of zero hours contracts might have to say in their own self interest, the vast majority of the public is against them. Unfortunately like yourself the public have no in depth knowledge of the issue, nor any desire to learn. Like Brexit they will vote for what they think sounds right and leave it to others to sort out the resultant mess. My guess is that the tiny amount of zero hours contracts (Assuming someone ever defines what they are) are all in places where there are not enough hours to offer more. The idea that employers deliberately take on more workers than they need in order to offer less hours to each is bonkers. Why train all those extra workers, do all that extra HR tax NI etc . Still if it keeps the troops happy, its a pretty easy promise. As no one knows what the solution is, then the solution can be whatever fudge your government choose. I suspect it will be exemptions for certain types of work, those being the ones that can only offer zero hours contracts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2024 10:21:18 GMT
I will say that when polling tested public opinion on abolishing zero hours contracts, their response was as follows.... "On the plan to ban zero-hours contracts, 71 per cent said they backed the move, while just 16 per cent said they were against it." The actual polling evidence containing the above can be found here, so no one has to take my word for it.... www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-manifesto-poll-voters-back-policies-jeremy-corbyn-latest-a7731536.htmlSo whatever self-interested exploiters of zero hours contracts might have to say in their own self interest, the vast majority of the public is against them. Unfortunately like yourself the public have no in depth knowledge of the issue, nor any desire to learn. Like Brexit they will vote for what they think sounds right and leave it to others to sort out the resultant mess. My guess is that the tiny amount of zero hours contracts (Assuming someone ever defines what they are) are all in places where there are not enough hours to offer more. The idea that employers deliberately take on more workers than they need in order to offer less hours to each is bonkers. Why train all those extra workers, do all that extra HR tax NI etc . Still if it keeps the troops happy, its a pretty easy promise. As no one knows what the solution is, then the solution can be whatever fudge your government choose. I suspect it will be exemptions for certain types of work, those being the ones that can only offer zero hours contracts. I blocked you for a week or so because I felt the debate between us on this issue was becoming too personal and generating too much animosity so needed time out. I apologise for my part in that. I should have made much more effort to exclude you and others like you from my criticisms, so that it did not become or appear to be a personal attack upon you. I do not doubt that you are a good guy to work for. Anyway, you are too good and intelligent and reasonable a debater to be blocked permanently. I am reluctant to try engaging too deeply with you on this debate. I have never worked a zero hours contract. Relatives have at Sports Direct but no longer do. I have no vested interest either way, but recognise that you might feel that your very livelihood is at stake. All I will say is that when I first entered the workplace over 4 decades ago, no one ever heard of a zero hours contract. If such an offer appeared in a jobcentre no one would have accepted it. You still had the right back then to turn down any job you could not afford to live on. The only people who would ever have taken such a job would have been those whom it genuinely suited. And you sound as if those are the only people you would consider worth employing anyway. The problem today is that people can be pressured into what are for them inadequate contracts by the threat of draconian sanctions if they refuse, and not all employers are as decent as you. Such contracts are open to abuse by bad employers, who sadly do exist and always have done. Even if they are a minority. I have worked for bad employers myself in my younger days. I know there are a few of them out there. What we somehow need to do to give people income security is ban most zero hour contracts where this is reasonable but allow for their continued existence for those who need them where both employer and employee is genuinely happy with them. There is little reason why a chain like Sports Direct need to use zero hours contracts, when most of their competitors do not. The main problem is that many people who don't want an insufficiency of guaranteed hours are forced into them by jobcentre pressure, a fact which has enabled them to expand. If we were to give people the right to refuse jobs that don't guarantee at least 16 hours, would that not suit you by ensuring that the only ones applying for your jobs genuinely wanted them? As for any ban on zero hours contracts, I accept that a total ban might not be a good thing where employers and employees both genuinely want or need them. I am open to reason in regards to the details and exemptions in any legislation. But will leave representing that to your MP to you and others like you. I have no desire to put people like you out of business, and think that any legislation needs to take you and your employees into account. But there is certainly no reason at all why a large organisation like Tesco for example, with many thousands of employees cannot give at least 16 guaranteed hours to those for whom such guaranteed income is important. As Tesco is in fact now already doing because it was losing too many people by not doing so.
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