Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 30, 2024 20:55:42 GMT
Re 2 and 4: 2. No. As I wrote earlier, we need a health service that is proactive and not reactive. Discouraging people from accessing primary care will cost more in the long run due to many missed opportunities for early diagnosis. 4. We don't need case managers; that is exactly what a GP is for. 2 works in France for ~£10 a visit. We need to incentivise people to self treat simple conditions. Oh and I'd make accessing A&E £25 4 what you're saying is make the GP the case manager. Could work if they can delegate it (as we are short of GPs) right now we don't give GPs the authority or information to be that.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,365
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Post by Steve on Apr 30, 2024 21:10:16 GMT
3, I worry we get a two tier system, more than now. Already the wealth gap in the UK is too large , the worst country in Europe. Maybe some system where you don't get to use NHS doctors and surgeons. Wealth gap is another issue (BTW we are not the highest in Europe, far from it). Anyway we shouldn't be using the NHS as some sort of tax and redistribute way of addressing it. We should be helping instead of penalising people if they help reduce the burden on the NHS. Because we cannot forever afford by taxation the NHS everyone wants.
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Post by Zany on Apr 30, 2024 21:24:18 GMT
3, I worry we get a two tier system, more than now. Already the wealth gap in the UK is too large , the worst country in Europe. Maybe some system where you don't get to use NHS doctors and surgeons. Wealth gap is another issue (BTW we are not the highest in Europe, far from it). Anyway we shouldn't be using the NHS as some sort of tax and redistribute way of addressing it. We should be helping instead of penalising people if they help reduce the burden on the NHS. Because we cannot forever afford by taxation the NHS everyone wants. Of course we can't, there is no upper limit. But we can afford considerably more than we do now. Most of the people I associate with have 50 to 100k cars and 3 or 4 holidays a year, they spend 200 quid on wind chimes. And these aren't people who consider themselves rich.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,365
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Post by Steve on Apr 30, 2024 21:31:24 GMT
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Post by Zany on Apr 30, 2024 21:51:54 GMT
This argument for the laughter curve has been made and adjusted many times. But they wont leave family friends hobbies homes and one of the nicest countries in the world for another 5k a year in tax. Denmark. I would prefer something that is progressive.
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Steve
Hero Protagonist
Posts: 3,365
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Post by Steve on Apr 30, 2024 22:24:03 GMT
I still say it's really another topic
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Post by cartertonian on May 1, 2024 6:37:13 GMT
No, let's remember that until two years ago I was the manager of the UK's largest military mental health team, working daily alongside colleagues in primary care from both the military and the NHS, and I now teach healthcare in a university. The GP IS the 'case manager'. That is how the system is designed. They are supposed to know everything about their patients and act as the central hub for a patient's care, with all of the secondary and tertiary care provision reporting back in to them, like a spider in the centre of a medical information web. Where the system falls down is in what you said in your earlier post about, "...the idiocy of fragmented groups all with individual targets that disincentivise effective solutions". The structural and organisational changes made in healthcare over the last three decades have wrought a situation wherein, as you intimate, each part of the supposedly seamless care process has become stove-piped and self-absorbed, so they can stay within their budget.
This is compounded by the lack of a joined-up information management system. Some may remember that in the early 2000s the government were trying to introduce a unifying, fully-integrated computer system to the NHS, so that any information held anywhere about a patient was accessible to GPs and also to anyone else who had legitimate need to access that information. The project failed rather spectacularly for the NHS, but we in DMS were working alongside NHS at the time, to have a similar system for defence that would integrate with the NHS system, so I have had many years' experience of working with the sort of system the NHS should have had. I could go to anywhere in the world where we had a UK facility and access all the information about my patient, from primary care, to pharmacy details, even dental details (not that I needed those), so that I could make absolutely sure that what I was doing with my patients was consistent with their overall healthcare pathway.
Ergo, most of the service delivery problems the NHS has today derive from the aforementioned fragmentation and the corresponding lack of effective communication.
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Post by Zany on May 1, 2024 8:09:22 GMT
No, let's remember that until two years ago I was the manager of the UK's largest military mental health team, working daily alongside colleagues in primary care from both the military and the NHS, and I now teach healthcare in a university. The GP IS the 'case manager'. That is how the system is designed. They are supposed to know everything about their patients and act as the central hub for a patient's care, with all of the secondary and tertiary care provision reporting back in to them, like a spider in the centre of a medical information web. Where the system falls down is in what you said in your earlier post about, "...the idiocy of fragmented groups all with individual targets that disincentivise effective solutions". The structural and organisational changes made in healthcare over the last three decades have wrought a situation wherein, as you intimate, each part of the supposedly seamless care process has become stove-piped and self-absorbed, so they can stay within their budget. This is compounded by the lack of a joined-up information management system. Some may remember that in the early 2000s the government were trying to introduce a unifying, fully-integrated computer system to the NHS, so that any information held anywhere about a patient was accessible to GPs and also to anyone else who had legitimate need to access that information. The project failed rather spectacularly for the NHS, but we in DMS were working alongside NHS at the time, to have a similar system for defence that would integrate with the NHS system, so I have had many years' experience of working with the sort of system the NHS should have had. I could go to anywhere in the world where we had a UK facility and access all the information about my patient, from primary care, to pharmacy details, even dental details (not that I needed those), so that I could make absolutely sure that what I was doing with my patients was consistent with their overall healthcare pathway. Ergo, most of the service delivery problems the NHS has today derive from the aforementioned fragmentation and the corresponding lack of effective communication. Bit of confusion on my part here. For me the case manager was an enabler. They coordinate the GP's instructions with the various other departments. So the patient seamlessly gets the scans treatment and drugs in one or two visits to the hospital. This could save millions of wasted pounds, not to mention visits to the hospital. For me this case manager could also be the communicator with the relatives. My wife saw a number of complaints from relatives which were purely due to misunderstanding what was happening. One notable case was a claim by parents that their son was left on a trolley to die outside Neuro . What was really going on was his head injury had caused his brain to swell and he was on drugs to reduce Cerebral Edema and being monitored but kept at Neuro for regular scans. But no one told the relatives, so all they saw was a nurse checking their son every 15 minutes but doing nothing. They were told later what had happened but by that time they were convinced it was a cover up for lazy staff etc. As for the computer systems, they are ridiculous. My daughter is a ward sister in neo natal, the monitoring equipment on the babies cannot be connected to the computer system, so the staff waste hours copying numbers from the monitors and typing them manually into the computers. Each time they have to be checked by a colleague. IMO making the IT systems work would be the biggest money saver for the NHS.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 1, 2024 9:16:34 GMT
When I was trying to get my cancer tests and eventual surgery in the promised times my GP (and they are excellent) was very clear that they had no more information than me and that once the local trust had been given the case they had no ability to direct them. So I had to but I did get good advice from the GP about which buttons to push.
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Post by cartertonian on May 1, 2024 18:24:57 GMT
Oh, I quite agree with you in terms of the reality, but that reality is at odds with how the system was designed. Your GP 'should' know all about you and every health intervention you are either having or have ever had, but they and we patients are let down by poor administration and the aforementioned IT debacle.
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Steve
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Posts: 3,365
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Post by Steve on May 1, 2024 20:12:08 GMT
Monday's farce: they phone one of my friends who's now in a care home and tell him he needs a follow up appointment but he has to get himself to the hospital for a blood test first. He points out he can no longer drive etc so they tell him he has to drive himself to the doctors instead. Actually being a care home the doctors do visits but seems the 'read a script' erk at the hospital couldn't think of that. We think we've got it sorted.
Today's farce. yesterday they phone me to say I need a CT scan (standard post cancer follow up). No apology that they're a month late and they read the script and say I have to got to the hospital for a pre blood test. I say why not the doctors instead and they say OK but then I ask for the blood test form. 'Oh the doctors will already have that online' they say. So today I go to the doctors and of course no such form has been seen and isn't in my records there.
As I said: if you have a serious condition it is YOU that has to be the case manager because no one in the NHS will because that's how the Tories disorganised it.
Now I've been a project manager in my time, I know how to make such things work but what about those that haven't or can't? Hard to escape the conclusion the Tories plain don't care.
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Post by vinny on May 2, 2024 15:21:23 GMT
The Tories have in creased spending on the NHS by 40% since they took power, so where the heck has all the money gone? No one in there right mind thinks the NHS today is doing well, the news is filled with terrible stories, waiting lists for even critical things like cancer treatment. So anyone know where the money has gone? Middle management, bad procurement contracts, unnecessary gender surgeries, Covid legacy?
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Post by Zany on May 2, 2024 18:25:57 GMT
The Tories have in creased spending on the NHS by 40% since they took power, so where the heck has all the money gone? No one in there right mind thinks the NHS today is doing well, the news is filled with terrible stories, waiting lists for even critical things like cancer treatment. So anyone know where the money has gone? Middle management, bad procurement contracts, unnecessary gender surgeries, Covid legacy? Did you really need to add unnecessary gender surgeries. You must know that's a minute amount.
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